Great Eastern Privatisation

pmew

pmew

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This is a subject that has been discussed on a blog that I follow and I'd like to hear other peoples opinions.

Also, I need to make it clear that this is from an international point of view.

This is by no means a put down, I really appreciate what certain people have done for traditional pocket knives of recent years (I own an original Campagna myself), but how do people feel about the direction that GEC has taken with regards to the SFOs that now dominate their schedule?

I first discovered GEC at the beginning of 2010, and throughout that year and into 2011 I marvelled at the inspired product that they were releasing. There was a good spread of patterns being released in various options and they were available at a number of dealers who seemed to have an equal spread. I feel that this is no longer the case.

The special factory order is clearly a very profitable option for the company, and it suits their traditional method of manufacture. Small limited runs of handmade knives lend themselves to the SFO process and make it possible for a small dealer or even a person to have a tailor made run of pocket knives to their specifications. However, this does mean that quite often my international interest suffers as many SFOs are made by companies that are - how do I put this - internationally cautious, and some won't do overseas business at all.

As previously stated, I really appreciate what the likes of Charlie have brought to the traditional pocket knife community, and I love his knives, but I would like to see GEC return to their roots a little and make their own knives again, with a schedule that will excite everyone, not just those that live in America.

I would love to hear other opinions on this, and I can't find a similar thread so if one exists - mods please feel free to merge.

Paul
 
I'm not sure the issue lies with GEC. It just happens that most SFOs have been done by dealers who are as you say "internationally cautious". If the SFO were to be initiated by a dealer that ships internationally, this issue wouldn't arise at all. Even if GEC do normal production runs, if that international dealer does not wish to carry stock of a particular model, we overseas buyers are still stuck.

Linus
 
Being an "international" myself though not yet owner of any GEC's (the wife put her foot down, no more buying knives for the next six months!) I can understand the effect sfo-only production would have on international customers. I personally believe such a reputable outfit as GEC should certainly have a run of their own knives. Even if they maintain SFO as their main income I would like to see batch runs much as you suggested. Just my .02 :)
 
I hear you Paul.It is frustrating to say the least. So far I've dealt mainly with a GEC noted dealer who stocks most everything and has very reasonable shipping rates to my part of the world.Happy Days for me.
BUT business is business and they are in it to make profit are they not? End of the day ,Cut to the chase,Lets peel it back to the bone.
If SFO s are where the money is then that will (long term) keep them alive in business.Both factory and dealer. That's got to be a good thing for the future of the company and the community.

I see Linus has chimed in here and it was he who advised me of international on line shipping addresses. Could this be the solution to the availability dilemma Paul ?
I understand your beef with GEC clogging up their production schedule with SFOs ,but if these are selling -that's got to be good.

He said, expecting a call from a mod at any minute. No wait you should have seen what I wrote about lack of international postage and costs before edit. A couple of dealers whom we all know and love would be calling up the hounds.Sometimes theres no "nice "way to say something and still be polite without it coming across rude.I didn't mean it like that so I cut it.

PS these three came to Australia from Charlie himself without a hitch I would like to clear that up.
20140725_144837_zpsec615934.jpg
 
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Also, it's not like an SFO is only going to one dealer from what I can tell. I'm not exactly sure how it all works but this last run of Charlows has been found at a number of different dealers, I can think of at least three off hand.
 
Interesting thread guys. I'm afraid it doesn't belong here though. I'm going to move it to FEEDBACK: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!.
 
yatsunil said:
I'm not sure the issue lies with GEC. It just happens that most SFOs have been done by dealers who are as you say "internationally cautious". If the SFO were to be initiated by a dealer that ships internationally, this issue wouldn't arise at all. Even if GEC do normal production runs, if that international dealer does not wish to carry stock of a particular model, we overseas buyers are still stuck.

Linus
Click to expand...

I agree to some extent but sfo's are often dealer exclusive so it's not a case of whether or not a particular dealer stocks it, but whether they made it happen.

RaptureRaptor said:
Being an "international" myself though not yet owner of any GEC's (the wife put her foot down, no more buying knives for the next six months!) I can understand the effect sfo-only production would have on international customers. I personally believe such a reputable outfit as GEC should certainly have a run of their own knives. Even if they maintain SFO as their main income I would like to see batch runs much as you suggested. Just my .02 :)
Click to expand...

Cheers bud, appreciate that :)

meako said:
I hear you Paul.It is frustrating to say the least. So far I've dealt mainly with a GEC noted dealer who stocks most everything and has very reasonable shipping rates to my part of the world.Happy Days for me.
BUT business is business and they are in it to make profit are they not? End of the day ,Cut to the chase,Lets peel it back to the bone.
If SFO s are where the money is then that will (long term) keep them alive in business.Both factory and dealer. That's got to be a good thing for the future of the company and the community.

I see Linus has chimed in here and it was he who advised me of international on line shipping addresses. Could this be the solution to the availability dilemma Paul ?
I understand your beef with GEC clogging up their production schedule with SFOs ,but if these are selling -that's got to be good.

He said, expecting a call from a mod at any minute. No wait you should have seen what I wrote about lack of international postage and costs before edit. a couple of dealers whom we all know and love would be calling up the hounds.
Click to expand...

Very interesting. Linus - PM incoming.
 
If I have read or interpreted correctly, GEC is out sourceing the knives they are shipping???? If that's the case all who have added GEC's to their stockpile have been bamboozeled. Is this truely the case? Personally, I have not added any GEC's in the last couple of years as I don't particularly appreciate their treatment of the pins being recessed into the scales. Just my own likes or dislikes but this outsourceing is news to me. I would very much like clarification re: GEC outsourceing.
 
Many times the perception of what is occurring dominates at one particular moment in time, when it is not actually the case at all. This may be one of those perceptions because a couple of SFO's have hit at the same time.

Speaking first to the SFO schedule itself. If you look at the GEC schedule over a years time, or even over just a quarter, a very small number of the production are SFO's. But many times people count those series of knives in which they have no interest, as an SFO. Just a complete guess, but my estimate would be that unique SFO's account for maybe 10% of GEC production. And SFO's that are actually just a variation of the same knife GEC is running anyway, as general production, may be another 5-10%. For example, when GEC ran their own bird knife I asked them to make me up some more improved trappers; and I believe Derrick had a few same framed knives ran. Now these were SFO's, but only ran as an add-on to the general production item being ran anyway. Same with Charlow's, as they are a variation of the Boys knife and accounted for maybe 400 of a 1000+ piece #15 run. Specifically the only real dedicated run SFO's these days seem to be Derrick's.

Secondly, GEC has positioned itself as a non-stocking maker of knives. Which means their specific methodology is to buy materials just in time to make a unique run of knives and make just enough knives to accommodate no inventory stocking afterwards. The factory will ask dealers for their orders before they stamp the parts, to help them determine production. Many times dealers will raise or lower these estimates after the stamping process and throw the planning into chaos. Many times the factory is over-sold before final production ever starts. And there are times where customer interest is so lackluster that dealers start drawing back orders and leave a large inventory on the factory shelves; sometimes for years. Thus, it is definitely advantageous for the factory to periodically have some production times which require no guesswork and are sold (to the last knife) before ever starting.

Finally, to the international shipping aspect. This country has regulated itself into some ridiculous corners and then decided to halfway enforce such regulations which leaves the populous unsure and laws on the book to begin with. Thus, if you ship knives internationally stop reading now and maintain your plausible deniability. US Fish and Wildlife requires any internationally bound package containing any non-domesticated animal component to be sent by a licensed seller, labeled as such, and inspected by their officers. This now also includes many breeds of endangered woods, which include some ebony's and rosewood's. The inspection fee, when last I checked, was around $90 per package. So, as you can imagine, anyone actually abiding by this law is not going to have many internationally customers. And those not abiding by this law, are one anonymous tip from the competition, away from being bankrupted by a single interception. Between the fine for not putting it on the label, not having a license, and not paying the inspection fee was around $450 - and that was as long as it was not a prohibited item. And once they find you tried to slip one package by them, they can legally obtain your records and fine you the same amount for each package that it is reasonable to believe was sent in the same manner for the history of your shipping. The origin of the material makes no difference, as my quick education of these laws came when I was shipping a German made Stag Bulldog knife to China in ignorance.

If a dealer aggravates someone, all they have to do is place an order for a stag knife to be shipped outside the US and supply the tracking number to USF&W. Then these laws, which are very hard to find documented, will be quickly and clearly explained to them as their records are being confiscated and the bank accounts frozen. In the last couple years these laws may have changed and I may have some of the details incorrect - but it is not a gamble I was willing to take with my livelihood.

Now, many knife enthusiasts internationally have figured out that re-shippers are an economical way around any specific dealers issues with shipping internationally. Not only do these services work well for those that buy a few knives a month, but they also relieve sellers from the threats of prosecution by putting the monkey on the re-shipper (which will not abide by US laws either).

So, just a little different perspective....
 
I cannot speak to the international issue. What I do see, is that the SFO's allow GEC to work on a new (or very old) pattern relatively risk free. Then release those later as part of their general production. So we get increased variety in patterns and materials available in production knives than we get from any other traditional manufacturer at the moment (and with the benefit of their stellar quality of work).

So even for those who cannot necessarily easily acquire the SFOs, GEC is maintaining and expanding their regular production as a result of them.
 
Le Fermier said:
If I have read or interpreted correctly, GEC is out sourceing the knives they are shipping???? If that's the case all who have added GEC's to their stockpile have been bamboozeled. Is this truely the case? Personally, I have not added any GEC's in the last couple of years as I don't particularly appreciate their treatment of the pins being recessed into the scales. Just my own likes or dislikes but this outsourceing is news to me. I would very much like clarification re: GEC outsourceing.
Click to expand...

I believe there's a misunderstanding. SFOs, or special factory orders, have become popular items with GE collectors. They are produced in much smaller numbers than GE's regular production runs, and are often pre-sold through GE vendors. They sell out quickly, sometimes with a few days of their release, making them difficult to obtain in the US, and near impossible to get overseas. Compounding the problem is the fact that not all GE dealers will ship overseas.

If a person knows in advance that a particular knife is to be manufactured, there are remedies to the problem. Contacting the party who is contracting the special run with GE is the most reliable method, but sometimes some of the GE dealers and forum members here are able to help.
 
knifeswapper said:
Many times the perception of what is occurring dominates at one particular moment in time, when it is not actually the case at all. This may be one of those perceptions because a couple of SFO's have hit at the same time.

Speaking first to the SFO schedule itself. If you look at the GEC schedule over a years time, or even over just a quarter, a very small number of the production are SFO's. But many times people count those series of knives in which they have no interest, as an SFO. Just a complete guess, but my estimate would be that unique SFO's account for maybe 10% of GEC production. And SFO's that are actually just a variation of the same knife GEC is running anyway, as general production, may be another 5-10%. For example, when GEC ran their own bird knife I asked them to make me up some more improved trappers; and I believe Derrick had a few same framed knives ran. Now these were SFO's, but only ran as an add-on to the general production item being ran anyway. Same with Charlow's, as they are a variation of the Boys knife and accounted for maybe 400 of a 1000+ piece #15 run. Specifically the only real dedicated run SFO's these days seem to be Derrick's.

Secondly, GEC has positioned itself as a non-stocking maker of knives. Which means their specific methodology is to buy materials just in time to make a unique run of knives and make just enough knives to accommodate no inventory stocking afterwards. The factory will ask dealers for their orders before they stamp the parts, to help them determine production. Many times dealers will raise or lower these estimates after the stamping process and throw the planning into chaos. Many times the factory is over-sold before final production ever starts. And there are times where customer interest is so lackluster that dealers start drawing back orders and leave a large inventory on the factory shelves; sometimes for years. Thus, it is definitely advantageous for the factory to periodically have some production times which require no guesswork and are sold (to the last knife) before ever starting.

Finally, to the international shipping aspect. This country has regulated itself into some ridiculous corners and then decided to halfway enforce such regulations which leaves the populous unsure and laws on the book to begin with. Thus, if you ship knives internationally stop reading now and maintain your plausible deniability. US Fish and Wildlife requires any internationally bound package containing any non-domesticated animal component to be sent by a licensed seller, labeled as such, and inspected by their officers. This now also includes many breeds of endangered woods, which include some ebony's and rosewood's. The inspection fee, when last I checked, was around $90 per package. So, as you can imagine, anyone actually abiding by this law is not going to have many internationally customers. And those not abiding by this law, are one anonymous tip from the competition, away from being bankrupted by a single interception. Between the fine for not putting it on the label, not having a license, and not paying the inspection fee was around $450 - and that was as long as it was not a prohibited item. And once they find you tried to slip one package by them, they can legally obtain your records and fine you the same amount for each package that it is reasonable to believe was sent in the same manner for the history of your shipping. The origin of the material makes no difference, as my quick education of these laws came when I was shipping a German made Stag Bulldog knife to China in ignorance.

If a dealer aggravates someone, all they have to do is place an order for a stag knife to be shipped outside the US and supply the tracking number to USF&W. Then these laws, which are very hard to find documented, will be quickly and clearly explained to them as their records are being confiscated and the bank accounts frozen. In the last couple years these laws may have changed and I may have some of the details incorrect - but it is not a gamble I was willing to take with my livelihood.

Now, many knife enthusiasts internationally have figured out that re-shippers are an economical way around any specific dealers issues with shipping internationally. Not only do these services work well for those that buy a few knives a month, but they also relieve sellers from the threats of prosecution by putting the monkey on the re-shipper (which will not abide by US laws either).

So, just a little different perspective....
Click to expand...

I was typing my earlier reply to the thread when you posted your response, and as usual, it's good information and interesting to hear a dealer's perspective.

Of particular interest to me was the part I highlighted in the quote. I had no idea that USF&W was involved, and the regs sound ludicrous at best. That certainly explains a lot to me about why one wouldn't do international shipping, thank you for sharing the information.
 
I don't believe that SFOs do actually dominate GEC's schedule. It might seem like that but as others have already noted, those SFOs are usually variations on knives GEC is already planning on making. I feel that they're a good thing for GEC as SFO's are pretty much already paid for by the person contracting the SFO rather than GEC having to sell them to dealers later.

I also feel that we as a community greatly benefited from SFOs. All of the GEC made forum knives were SFOs and all except for the Congress Jack has led to many runs of knives under GEC's brands (#85 and #74) The caplifter on the 2011 forum knife led to demand for the SFO radio jacks last year to regular run crown lifters. Do you like your GEC #71 Sodbuster or any of the Farm and Field knives? Those only came about because of an SFO. Mike had the #71s made in delrin at the end of 2011. GEC did not want to make them... Now, not only are/were they available from all the dealers, they were also available in micartas which GEC wasn't in the habit of using. Again, also started as an SFO but then later spread to all the dealers. I love the GEC #48 frame but the first ones were made for Derrick under the Scagel line. He had clip and wharncliffe models made in 2009 (might be 2008...) but only late last year did we get the improved trapper.

As for shipping, Mike has already gone through the issues one may face in this country shipping internationally. I know I don't like doing it because of the extra (perceived) risk of the buyer not receiving the knife they paid for. I just don't like that feeling and don't like the potential loss of knife and funds. I have sent knives internationally by way of reshipper and that was much easier I feel for all involved.
 
Le Fermier said:
If I have read or interpreted correctly, GEC is out sourceing the knives they are shipping???? If that's the case all who have added GEC's to their stockpile have been bamboozeled. Is this truely the case? Personally, I have not added any GEC's in the last couple of years as I don't particularly appreciate their treatment of the pins being recessed into the scales. Just my own likes or dislikes but this outsourceing is news to me. I would very much like clarification re: GEC outsourceing.
Click to expand...

You've got that backwards. It isn't GEC contracting out to others to make their knives. It is individuals and companies contracting GEC to make knives for them. For example, Derrick now owns the Northwoods brand. Lately, GEC has been making knives for Derrick under the Northwoods brand. Before GEC, Queen made them. The Kabar traditional knives are being made by Canal Street Cutlery. The #15 TC Barlows are/were SFOs that GEC is making under their own brand but they were commissioned by Charlie and now are being sold by many of the dealers.
 
Markesharp said:
Thanks for moving it Gary, it definitely does not belong here.
Click to expand...

I agree with Mark on this and I would hope this gets moved along much sooner than later. I just know this thread would hurt Waynorth's feelings and cause him to have a bad day. He has done so much for all of us - it should not be forgotten - and do not forget our beautiful forum knife, which would also be considered a private order. I am hoping this thread is gone before Charlie wakes, this fine morning.

pmew - one needs to first understand that these USA made knife companies have a hard time surviving. The daily unloading of no tellings how many cargo ships, loaded with the free flowing Chinese junk that infests every store in America, makes the manufacturing in the USA at risk. I would think these SFO's, without a doubt, insures the manufacturer that his knives are sold, without having the foreign competition cut his throat! Every morning, when I take my walk, a train will pass by, towing a hundred or more cars with foreign markings I cannot even read, where once those cars had great American made products weighing that train down.

and there is no way of knowing if it would help your cause if there were no SFO's. Many times, one has to stop and think - careful what you wish for!

Now - please move thread - please.
 
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Mike I would probably fall into the occasional shipper category you outlined above. Please don't tell me The U.S. is regulating itself out of business in the same manner of Australia. That would be no good. I sympathise with government agencies(god knows I work for one) but they aren't there to put us out of business .....are they?? because that's what it sounds like .
I know how you feel..... and it goes like this.grrrr
 
I don't know Meako. I don't believe they're there to put those businesses out of business but I also don't believe they'd bat and eye if it did. This doesn't just affect knives or just shipping out of the US. Gibson Guitars was raided due to having mislabeled Ebony http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibson_Guitar_Corporation#Recent_history. I doubt any dealer here or even GEC itself could absorb $350k in fines and as much in forfeited supplies. I wouldn't even travel out of the US with a knife with natural handle materials. I'd hate to have my knife confiscated and/or destroyed like musical instruments are. Musical instruments are more highly regarded (imho) here than knives but that didn't stop them.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/01/01/they-didnt-give-a-flute-customs-agents-at-jfk-airport-destroyed-every-one-of-this-mans-11-handmade-instruments/
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/01/02/boujemaa-razgui-flutes-us-customs-tsa-border-agent_n_4531657.html
 
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