Great Eastern Privatisation

Primble said:
I agree with Mark on this and I would hope this gets moved along much sooner than later. I just know this thread would hurt Waynorth's feelings and cause him to have a bad day. He has done so much for all of us - it should not be forgotten - and do not forget our beautiful forum knife, which would also be considered a private order. I am hoping this thread is gone before Charlie wakes, this fine morning.

pmew - one needs to first understand that these USA made knife companies have a hard time surviving. The daily unloading of no tellings how many cargo ships, loaded with the free flowing Chinese junk that infests every store in America, makes the manufacturing in the USA at risk. I would think these SFO's, without a doubt, insures the manufacturer that his knives are sold, without having the foreign competition cut his throat! Every morning, when I take my walk, a train will pass by, towing a hundred or more cars with foreign markings I cannot even read, where once those cars had great American made products weighing that train down.

and there is no way of knowing if it would help your cause if there were no SFO's. Many times, one has to stop and think - careful what you wish for!

Now - please move thread - please.
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I hope and assume our friend Charlie isn't that hypersensitive. What is the complaint, that SFO's can be harder to order if you're international? I certainly doubt that would come as a surprise to the good man or "ruin his day" 😀. Hasn't he lived in Canada? If anything it could be a compliment that everyone around the world loves his knives. Certainly nobody blames him for U.S. and international shipping regulations.
 
RaptureRaptor said:
Being an "international" myself though not yet owner of any GEC's (the wife put her foot down, no more buying knives for the next six months!) I can understand the effect sfo-only production would have on international customers. I personally believe such a reputable outfit as GEC should certainly have a run of their own knives. Even if they maintain SFO as their main income I would like to see batch runs much as you suggested. Just my .02 :)
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I guess as someone that has done an SFO with GEC that I see this differently. GEC does their own. As an example, when they made my electricians knife custom to my specs after Bill and I worked out the design we thought would be best, they made 150 for me which actually amounted to 156 or maybe it was 157 I don't recall but anyway the actual number was off for both of us. GEC did an equal number on their own label in their own cannister.

I think the idea that it hurts international is by nature because of their geographic location, not something GEC did per say. Also, I doubt even if GEC does some of or even all of their own designs that they would make large quantities of any of them but still keep to the small limited run of each in a particular handle probably not used again at that. So, the basic agreed SFO deal would usually be that say okay, you hit a home run and didn't make enough? Well you call up, get more at the same deal and likely as per the arrangement it would be timed for when they wanted to do more also so both are sold.

Anyone that has a good idea, that they can convey can come up with an SFO so what if one of you guys overseas just did one ( an SFO of your own) and stopped complaining about it? There is a thought then the person that did them gets them to distribute all over Europe if Bill consents to do a run with you. Never hurts to ask from my view point. I did and if they can work with my sorry ass they can work with any of you cause I'm an anal pain! In an adorable way tho! :)
 
STR said:
I guess as someone that has done an SFO with GEC that I see this differently. GEC does their own. As an example, when they made my electricians knife custom to my specs after Bill and I worked out the design we thought would be best, they made 150 for me which actually amounted to 156 or maybe it was 157 I don't recall but anyway the actual number was off for both of us. GEC did an equal number on their own label in their own cannister.

I think the idea that it hurts international is by nature because of their geographic location, not something GEC did per say. Also, I doubt even if GEC does some of or even all of their own designs that they would make large quantities of any of them but still keep to the small limited run of each in a particular handle probably not used again at that. So, the basic agreed SFO deal would usually be that say okay, you hit a home run and didn't make enough? Well you call up, get more at the same deal and likely as per the arrangement it would be timed for when they wanted to do more also so both are sold.

Anyone that has a good idea, that they can convey can come up with an SFO so what if one of you guys overseas just did one ( an SFO of your own) and stopped complaining about it? There is a thought then the person that did them gets them to distribute all over Europe if Bill consents to do a run with you. Never hurts to ask from my view point. I did and if they can work with my sorry ass they can work with any of you cause I'm an anal pain! In an adorable way tho! :)
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Well said and to the point. :thumbup:
 
By the way, if I had ordered up 300 they would probably have done that many also. At least that was how it was presented as I recall. Now each SFO contract may vary but the point is you have the option of contracting one. If one or more international fans of GEC wants an SFO for a particular model they have been dreaming of what better opportunity than now to contract with knife gurus to custom make some up for you? If shipping to you is an issue it may change everything but you know surely one of a group like a forum on an overseas web site could all figure out who is trustworthy taking a vacation or who you can trust stateside as a third party shipper to break the packages down and mail them. It may change your cost some on the product but you know that will occur with currency conversion anywho! Again, just thoughts. Many customers of mine that live in Canada have me ship to USA addresses also so one could do that if its still North America.
 
STR said:
I guess as someone that has done an SFO with GEC that I see this differently. GEC does their own. As an example, when they made my electricians knife custom to my specs after Bill and I worked out the design we thought would be best, they made 150 for me which actually amounted to 156 or maybe it was 157 I don't recall but anyway the actual number was off for both of us. GEC did an equal number on their own label in their own cannister.

I think the idea that it hurts international is by nature because of their geographic location, not something GEC did per say. Also, I doubt even if GEC does some of or even all of their own designs that they would make large quantities of any of them but still keep to the small limited run of each in a particular handle probably not used again at that. So, the basic agreed SFO deal would usually be that say okay, you hit a home run and didn't make enough? Well you call up, get more at the same deal and likely as per the arrangement it would be timed for when they wanted to do more also so both are sold.

Anyone that has a good idea, that they can convey can come up with an SFO so what if one of you guys overseas just did one ( an SFO of your own) and stopped complaining about it? There is a thought then the person that did them gets them to distribute all over Europe if Bill consents to do a run with you. Never hurts to ask from my view point. I did and if they can work with my sorry ass they can work with any of you cause I'm an anal pain! In an adorable way tho! :)
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I meant no disrespect to GEC and I'm not out and out against SFO's. I suppose I jumped in without prior knowledge so that's my mistake. Had I the skill or knowledge to come up with a design I'd surely think about doing an SFO but my intent here was to convey that many of the groups that do SFO's are a little less internationally friendly and that in doing their own run GEC could potentially gain customers by bypassing that small problem. Sorry if I offended anyone, was not my intention.
 
knifeswapper said:
Many times the perception of what is occurring dominates at one particular moment in time, when it is not actually the case at all. This may be one of those perceptions because a couple of SFO's have hit at the same time.

Speaking first to the SFO schedule itself. If you look at the GEC schedule over a years time, or even over just a quarter, a very small number of the production are SFO's. But many times people count those series of knives in which they have no interest, as an SFO. Just a complete guess, but my estimate would be that unique SFO's account for maybe 10% of GEC production. And SFO's that are actually just a variation of the same knife GEC is running anyway, as general production, may be another 5-10%. For example, when GEC ran their own bird knife I asked them to make me up some more improved trappers; and I believe Derrick had a few same framed knives ran. Now these were SFO's, but only ran as an add-on to the general production item being ran anyway. Same with Charlow's, as they are a variation of the Boys knife and accounted for maybe 400 of a 1000+ piece #15 run. Specifically the only real dedicated run SFO's these days seem to be Derrick's.

Secondly, GEC has positioned itself as a non-stocking maker of knives. Which means their specific methodology is to buy materials just in time to make a unique run of knives and make just enough knives to accommodate no inventory stocking afterwards. The factory will ask dealers for their orders before they stamp the parts, to help them determine production. Many times dealers will raise or lower these estimates after the stamping process and throw the planning into chaos. Many times the factory is over-sold before final production ever starts. And there are times where customer interest is so lackluster that dealers start drawing back orders and leave a large inventory on the factory shelves; sometimes for years. Thus, it is definitely advantageous for the factory to periodically have some production times which require no guesswork and are sold (to the last knife) before ever starting.

Finally, to the international shipping aspect. This country has regulated itself into some ridiculous corners and then decided to halfway enforce such regulations which leaves the populous unsure and laws on the book to begin with. Thus, if you ship knives internationally stop reading now and maintain your plausible deniability. US Fish and Wildlife requires any internationally bound package containing any non-domesticated animal component to be sent by a licensed seller, labeled as such, and inspected by their officers. This now also includes many breeds of endangered woods, which include some ebony's and rosewood's. The inspection fee, when last I checked, was around $90 per package. So, as you can imagine, anyone actually abiding by this law is not going to have many internationally customers. And those not abiding by this law, are one anonymous tip from the competition, away from being bankrupted by a single interception. Between the fine for not putting it on the label, not having a license, and not paying the inspection fee was around $450 - and that was as long as it was not a prohibited item. And once they find you tried to slip one package by them, they can legally obtain your records and fine you the same amount for each package that it is reasonable to believe was sent in the same manner for the history of your shipping. The origin of the material makes no difference, as my quick education of these laws came when I was shipping a German made Stag Bulldog knife to China in ignorance.

If a dealer aggravates someone, all they have to do is place an order for a stag knife to be shipped outside the US and supply the tracking number to USF&W. Then these laws, which are very hard to find documented, will be quickly and clearly explained to them as their records are being confiscated and the bank accounts frozen. In the last couple years these laws may have changed and I may have some of the details incorrect - but it is not a gamble I was willing to take with my livelihood.

Now, many knife enthusiasts internationally have figured out that re-shippers are an economical way around any specific dealers issues with shipping internationally. Not only do these services work well for those that buy a few knives a month, but they also relieve sellers from the threats of prosecution by putting the monkey on the re-shipper (which will not abide by US laws either).

So, just a little different perspective....
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Mike, thanks for taking the time to type this out. It explains an awful lot and is actually quite a fascinating topic which I didn't appreciate had saturated even into the realms of my hobby.

Primble said:
I agree with Mark on this and I would hope this gets moved along much sooner than later. I just know this thread would hurt Waynorth's feelings and cause him to have a bad day. He has done so much for all of us - it should not be forgotten - and do not forget our beautiful forum knife, which would also be considered a private order. I am hoping this thread is gone before Charlie wakes, this fine morning.

pmew - one needs to first understand that these USA made knife companies have a hard time surviving. The daily unloading of no tellings how many cargo ships, loaded with the free flowing Chinese junk that infests every store in America, makes the manufacturing in the USA at risk. I would think these SFO's, without a doubt, insures the manufacturer that his knives are sold, without having the foreign competition cut his throat! Every morning, when I take my walk, a train will pass by, towing a hundred or more cars with foreign markings I cannot even read, where once those cars had great American made products weighing that train down.

and there is no way of knowing if it would help your cause if there were no SFO's. Many times, one has to stop and think - careful what you wish for!

Now - please move thread - please.
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Primble, I agree with what you are saying. Coming from a nation which once had a great and thriving cutlery business, anything that keeps traditional manufacturers in business is a good thing.

I thought a discussion about a traditional pocket knife manufacturer would be appropriate in the traditional sub-forum. Perhaps the overseas shipping aspect should not have been brought into it, I regret that now, as it was not intended to be my focus.

Mods, Sorry for that.

As I took particular care to mention at the start of my thread; I own a Charlow which I bought directly from him with no issues what-so-ever and I love what Charlie does. I sincerely hope that he isn't offended by my OP, nor indeed anyone else. If I have caused offence to anybody, then I hope you will please accept my deepest apologies, as it was not my intention.

payton206 said:
I hope and assume our friend Charlie isn't that hypersensitive. What is the complaint, that SFO's can be harder to order if you're international? I certainly doubt that would come as a surprise to the good man or "ruin his day" ��. Hasn't he lived in Canada? If anything it could be a compliment that everyone around the world loves his knives. Certainly nobody blames him for U.S. and international shipping regulations.
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There was no complaint. I was interested to hear peoples points of view about the change in focus that Great Eastern Cutlery has taken. To learn that Charlie might be offended by this topic would sadden me.

Paul
 
I was just going to bring up the Gibson Guitar fiasco Trand. The USF&W Service dang near drove them out of business. What Mike said about certain cover material being shipped (let alone used) out of and into the U.S. not only applies to dealers but to individuals too.

It's a real can of worms.

 
I thank you all for the clarification re: GEC out sourceing their knives. I would have blown a gasket were that the case. I suppose some here did pretty much swallow their beer down the wrong pipe when I asked. It's a relief to hear that that is not the case.
 
knifeswapper said:
Finally, to the international shipping aspect. This country has regulated itself into some ridiculous corners and then decided to halfway enforce such regulations which leaves the populous unsure and laws on the book to begin with. Thus, if you ship knives internationally stop reading now and maintain your plausible deniability. US Fish and Wildlife requires any internationally bound package containing any non-domesticated animal component to be sent by a licensed seller, labeled as such, and inspected by their officers. This now also includes many breeds of endangered woods, which include some ebony's and rosewood's. The inspection fee, when last I checked, was around $90 per package. So, as you can imagine, anyone actually abiding by this law is not going to have many internationally customers. And those not abiding by this law, are one anonymous tip from the competition, away from being bankrupted by a single interception. Between the fine for not putting it on the label, not having a license, and not paying the inspection fee was around $450 - and that was as long as it was not a prohibited item. And once they find you tried to slip one package by them, they can legally obtain your records and fine you the same amount for each package that it is reasonable to believe was sent in the same manner for the history of your shipping. The origin of the material makes no difference, as my quick education of these laws came when I was shipping a German made Stag Bulldog knife to China in ignorance.
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So does this include bone? And when shipping as an individual do the same laws apply? Pardon my ignorance but almost 100% of my traditional collection comes from the states.
 
STR said:
I guess as someone that has done an SFO with GEC that I see this differently. GEC does their own. As an example, when they made my electricians knife custom to my specs after Bill and I worked out the design we thought would be best, they made 150 for me which actually amounted to 156 or maybe it was 157 I don't recall but anyway the actual number was off for both of us. GEC did an equal number on their own label in their own cannister.

I think the idea that it hurts international is by nature because of their geographic location, not something GEC did per say. Also, I doubt even if GEC does some of or even all of their own designs that they would make large quantities of any of them but still keep to the small limited run of each in a particular handle probably not used again at that. So, the basic agreed SFO deal would usually be that say okay, you hit a home run and didn't make enough? Well you call up, get more at the same deal and likely as per the arrangement it would be timed for when they wanted to do more also so both are sold.

Anyone that has a good idea, that they can convey can come up with an SFO so what if one of you guys overseas just did one ( an SFO of your own) and stopped complaining about it? There is a thought then the person that did them gets them to distribute all over Europe if Bill consents to do a run with you. Never hurts to ask from my view point. I did and if they can work with my sorry ass they can work with any of you cause I'm an anal pain! In an adorable way tho! :)
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I think you totally miss point. The Internationals only want to buy one knife from any given SFO. They have trouble finding a dealer to ship to them. The answer would not be for them to order a 150 knife run to get one knife for themselves. And I didn't hear any complaining either. What I heard was the OP trying to open a reasonable discussion on a concern he has.
 
rma100 said:
I think you totally miss point. The Internationals only want to buy one knife from any given SFO. They have trouble finding a dealer to ship to them. The answer would not be for them to order a 150 knife run to get one knife for themselves. And I didn't hear any complaining either. What I heard was the OP trying to open a reasonable discussion on a concern he has.
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Okay, well, I think its still reasonable. What I mean to say is if individuals want an individual knife find like minded friends wanting it also much like they do here for the blade forums knife each year to contract a knife model so a dealer can take the order that will deal with it for distribution for all the pre-orders. Surely there is someone that would do it for you guys to mail the stuff over insured. It kinda comes off as a complaint like GEC is responsible for making it more difficult for people to get their products because of SFO orders.
 
RaptureRaptor said:
So does this include bone? And when shipping as an individual do the same laws apply? Pardon my ignorance but almost 100% of my traditional collection comes from the states.
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Not bovine bone as it is domesticated. I wouldn't have a guess on camel or buffalo bone (both of which I have seen). But it does include mother of pearl, abalone, ivory, stag, horn (most sorts), and any other part off a non-domesticated species.
 
I am not insulted, scared or offended in any way!!
I would be scared if we couldn't have a reasonable discussion on any topic we choose!!
I must say, it beggars belief, that we can import Stag, but are restricted about sending it back out of the country!! Usually, if you send something back out of the country, you can get a rebate on import taxes!! So there!!!
 
RaptureRaptor said:
I suppose this will impact on my order for the 2014 bf knife
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As a buyer, there is no real concern. These are not new laws; just laws that get very expensive to be ignorant about when the enforcement arrives. Most all dealers that don't ship internationally, don't for other reasons. And those that do have probably read/heard about this but will take their chances.
 
Okay, well that's somewhat of a relief, still sucks for the senders. Sometimes I wonder if anyone actually thinks about the laws they impose before passing them.
 
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