Grinding jigs and other technology, is it cheating?

If we were having this conversation 50 years ago, the same people would be saying the same things about propane forges and belt sanders.

"Well if it's got a platen then it requires no skill from the maker to create a uniform flat grind or tapered tang - it's practically cheating!"

Whatever... When I approach a custom maker and order a blade, I don't care what he/she uses to achieve my required level of quality and precision in my specified design... that is, unless the maker wants me to wait 2 years for a sloppy knife with crooked grind lines and an asymmetrical pattern just so he can call it "handmade" in the 18th century sense of the word.
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A knifemaker uses what tools are available and what his skill level allows. If you worked at Benchmade and were allowed after hours use of the CNC lazer to profile knife blanks, would you turn it down? I don't think so!
 
I dont use any jigs, guides, or helpers to grind my blades. I profile the old fashioned way too.. Thats NOT to say I wouldnt have them cut on a lazer, or that a jig would be out of the question. I have just not ever found a jig that could help me grind any faster than I can by hand. And the lazer thing just seems like a hassle to me.
I would though make it VERY clear to my customers that my knives were made with jigs, lazers, immigrants, etc. just like I say I DONT on my site..
If you make GOOD knives with good designs people wont much care how they were made I dont think, BUT I would let them know anyway:)


Take Care
Trace Rinaldi http://www.pe.net/~thrblade/
 
they had paltens for flat grinding 50 years ago.and contact wheels matter of fact the same basic design of grinders wherther electric or petal or water powered. i draw the line at cnc machanery if i am not getting grinding dust under my finger nails or burning them i do not consider the knife handmade. doesn't mean that its not a great design or one of a kind blade i just feel the term handmade does not apply.

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Laurence Segal www.RHINOKNIVES.com
 
If I owned knife manufacturing business yes I would try to buy and use any computer aided means I could get. But I am glad with the God given skill I have to make one knife at a time. I am satisfied making one of a kinds. I get bored making the same knife over and over. The Chris Reeve sebenza is a nice knife but the poor guy running the cnc may have lost some of the love for his job by now after how long making it? Years! I dont have the knowledge to design a knife on a computer. Im lucky to get around on bladeforums and send email. I have a scanner but dont know how to use it yet. I spend every waking moment in the shop grinding and Im happy. I am going to the college precision machine shop in the night class and could learn and use the cnc there but Im too busy using their bridgeport mill and surface grinder making custom folders. The cnc isnt for everyone I guess.
 
I think we all know what handmade is. If you want to cut corners and use machines that's your business. If it speeds up the process and helps you make more money then that's great too. If you use a CNC and an assistant to make your knives then that's your right. But to call it handmade is unethical. Blood, sweat and tears are human products and can't be duplicated by a machine. It's greedy to claim both. High tech handmade is a oxymoron. I find it odd how many people sacrifice handmade integrity and justify it with commercial success. Handmade knives have a spirit that commercial sell outs will never understand or at least will never admit to. I think it's because as a society we see success measured in monetary terms and can somehow discount the spirit. A handmade knife's spirit flows from sweat not machine oil. If you want to be a handmade knifemaker then be one. We all know what it means. If you want to make you knives with machines then go for it. Draw the line of compromise anywhere you want to. You are the only one that has to listen to your inner voices so do right by yourself and tell everyone else to kiss off.
 
What's wrong with saying your knives are unique high tech machine made knives? If that's what you do why not say so? Why call it handmade if it isn't? What shame is there in saying your knives are uniquely made from the finest machines the world has to offer? If that's your gig then say so.
 
Lets look at this question in a different light.....the maker who does nothing but put together parts.......and sells them for $500+ each......there are a number of people out there doing this......I know for a fact. There was a big bruha about this at the Guild Show and one very well known maker quit and left for good. I dont like it at all personally.....but I make knives one at a time out of rectangular pieces of materials. I might feel differently if I had a CNC.

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
I think we could be confusing the term "handmade" with quality. It doesn't mean it's better than machine made it just mean it's handmade. I don't have a problem with the guy that puts parts together and sells the knife for $500, in fact I have a friend who makes much more than that by farming out the parts to different artisans and then he does the assembly. His name is on the blade and he is a commercial success. His knives are very cool too! Clint Eastwood owns two of them. He hires top guns to cast the blades to his designs, scrimshaw the handle, etch the blade, engraving, the guards are cast by someone else, heat treated by the best and then he does the assembly. He says it's his vision so his name is on them. More power to him! The problem is when a maker hides thier techniques and calls it handmade, then they are crossing a line in my opinion. Why should I care? Because it cheapens the term handmade and I for one have built a career on being a handmade knifemaker. I sacrifice the ability to mass produce my knives by earning the right to call myself a professional handmade knifemaker. When a high tech maker calls his knives handmade it tarnishes the term for the few who truely are. I don't lose any sleep over it. All I can do is voice my opinion and hope the customer decides who is truely handmade.

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http://www.livelyknives.com
 
A quick response to the original question asked by Boyer Blades: (paraphrased) "Is the use of grinding jigs and other technology cheating?"

Well, it's only "cheating" if you mislead or lie to your customer.

Again... the rest is just semantics...

[This message has been edited by Wulf (edited 10-26-2000).]
 


Well, it's only "cheating" if you mislead or lie to your customer.

Again... the rest is just semantics...

[This message has been edited by Wulf (edited 10-26-2000).][/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with this Wulf but the reason folks like me get bent out of shape when they hear someone call thier CNC produced knives handmade is because it effects the entire industry's view of what handmades are. Semantics or not this topic is a good one for the customer to read. To me it's what makes the web forums so unique. Do you think there will be such an open discussion like this in the magazines? No way. Why? Because some of the power advertisers a in the magazines are the machined knifemakers calling thier work handmade. They are the biggest income from ads that the magazines get. They are not about to open discussions that show these makers for what they really are. They would then have to feature artists based on thier unique artistic approach to knifemaking instead of only giving full features to the artisans who spend the biggest advertising dollar. Some of these magazines make no bones about this fact. They look at it as one hand washes the other. Not all the mags are this way but most are.
Where is the line? I call my work handmade because I only use hand tools without electricity but I don't make my own steel from raw resources. I would agree that the smith that does is more handmade than me but only the customer can decide. Maybe the customer doesn't want handmade, and wants high tech precision or whatever. At least the forums give the makers ample opportunity to voice thier opinions on the subject so that the customer gets the chance to hear more perspectives and therefore come to a more educated decision before a purchase.


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http://www.livelyknives.com
 
I think that there is no answer to the question... some steel pounders scream as being true handmade knifemakers. I have the skill (self taught) to program water jet machines and CNC's. Trust me it's a real hands on experiance. What would a old time blacksmith say to the powered hammer of todays forgers? What would he say to a light bulb? Does a hunter cheat becuse he uses a scoped rifle to the black powder hunter? Or the Black powder hunter cheat to the archer? Or the archer cheat to the rock thrower? If you stalk the deer you are the hunter... If you make the knife and it's a truly a hands on made then it's handmade product.

Does anyone think they are to be able to set the standard as to what handmade is? What precentage is hand-made?

I don't know what it is but, here in the USA there is a precentage of parts that has to be US made to be stamped "Made in the USA"

American made Hondas have more US made parts than Harleys.
 
I think that there is no answer to the question... some steel pounders scream as being true handmade knifemakers. I have the skill (self taught) to program water jet machines and CNC's. Trust me it's a real hands on experience. What would a old time blacksmith say to the powered hammer of todays forgers? What would he say to a light bulb? Does a hunter cheat because he uses a scoped rifle to the black powder hunter? Or the Black powder hunter cheat to the archer? Or the archer cheat to the rock thrower? If you stalk the deer you are the hunter... If you make the knife and it's a truly a hands on made then it's handmade product.

Does anyone think they are to be able to set the standard as to what handmade is? What percentage is hand-made?

I don't know what it is but, here in the USA there is a percentage of parts that has to be US made to be stamped "Made in the USA"

American made Hondas have more US made parts than Harleys.
 
Originally posted by lively:


...the reason folks like me get bent out of shape when they hear someone call thier CNC produced knives handmade is because it effects the entire industry's view of what handmades are...
Click to expand...

As many others here have already mentioned, it is the maker's responsibility to be forthright about the production methods he employs. Many makers pride themselves on the fact that they use the best technology available, and they receive top dollar for their blades. But I doubt anyone will argue that handmade implies anything other than, well, "hand made." Thus, any maker who does use a CNC machine is indeed misleading his customers when he claims his knives are handmade.

Ultimately, however, if the customer has certain stipulations as to what constitutes handmade, especially in those grey areas, all he needs to do is ask. It's not always wise just to assume...

 
Originally posted by Boyer Blades:


Does anyone think they are to be able to set the standard as to what handmade is? What percentage is hand-made?

B]
Click to expand...


I don't feel we should set standards of any kind in knifemaking. About handmade or anything else. I see it as an art and standards force some makers to slant thier art to fit that standard instead of using thier own free expression. Nobody has the right to set standards in art. I would never try to stop someone from calling thier knives handmade even if I totally believed they are out in out liars. I feel the standard is more negative than the lie. I will state my opinion (screaming if neccessary) to convince the collector otherwise though. That's everybody's right. To me it's my responsibility to show the collector the difference.
You mentioned that it is a hands on experience to program water jet machines and CNCs. Do you feel your knives are handmade because of this programming? Or do you call your knives benchmade or handcrafted or machined? Just wondering.


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http://www.livelyknives.com
 
Good discussion, remember the thing we got going for us is honesty. I believe the guild member that walked out made a very good decsion. Why align yourself with people that are not honest about what they do.

I would like to see a CNC made buckskinner bowie, and a buckskinner made tactical knife.


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Sola Fide
 
To me, it's all about the materials you start with. In my case, as with others who've posted here; Tom Mayo, for example, I start with flat stock for steel and profile it or forged it to shape myself. All other materials I use are in their raw state. As in, wood blocks I cut into scales, brass stock I cut and shape into gaurds etc...

It's important to me as a maker to use my own hands, eyes and brain in every phase of the process of making a knife. No-one and nothing else does any of my thinking or acting for me in my shop. When I get done with a knife, it is truly a hand-made knife in my opinion.

Sure, I use a grindstone for hollow-grinding, and a belt belt sander with rounded over platen for flat grinding. I use one of those Harbor Freight industrial band saws for cutting up my brass stock. And a small wood cutting bandsaw for cutting up my wood and other handle materials. And I use flourescent bulbs to light my shop. (I do use a kerosene lantern in my smithy when heat treating).

I think the real question here is: when is hand-made really not hand-made any more. I don't have a definative answer for that. But, I can honestly tell my customers that their knife will be a unique, one of a kind hand-made knife, and take pride in the results of my own hands. That's what it's all about for me. If I had to use computer aided equipment to get the job done, I'd probably stop making knives and sell girl scout cookies for a living.

That's just one knifemaker's opinion. Burn me down if you want to, but it won't change the way I do things in my shop. And it won't effect how my customers feel about my knives either.
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M.Ogg

"It's better to be thought a fool and remain silent, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
 
Originally posted by tom mayo:
Lets look at this question in a different light.....the maker who does nothing but put together parts.......and sells them for $500+ each......there are a number of people out there doing this......I know for a fact. There was a big bruha about this at the Guild Show and one very well known maker quit and left for good.

The maker involved in the bruha makes hi-power tactical folders. He is the one who didn't leave the Guild. He is praised regularly on this forum. It is claimed he assembles his knives from precut, premade parts. That he has 5 gallon buckets of these parts all around his shop. About 4-5 years ago, I saw him sell out 40 folders at a show and then come to another show 2 weeks later with another 40 folders for sale. The shows were in the NY area.

The maker took out an ad in Tactical Knives about 2 years ago refuting rumors that he just assembles from premade parts, yet the talk continues to this day. I wonder why. Well, maybe where there's smoke, there's fire.

He still sells these folders for $500, and what's pityful, people still buy them. They're worth less than half, maybe less.

Fool me once...Fool me twice.....

Selwyn
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Who cares
if a person wants to us a jig so be it
there is some skill used in grinding with a jig and there is always fit and finish
so grinding is not the only part of knife
makeing,I would bet there are some big time nice makers out there woh use them time is money to them.
 
Anyone have a jig that can finish blades . If ya do I want it hahahahhaha.
The crime is the folks that send there blades out to get them ground finished and laser etched with there name on them so they can assemble a knife in an hour and state that its hand made.

If a maker makes the knives themself in there shop I feel how they do it is there business.

See any perfect blades out there on CUSTOM knives. I have .. hum... makes me wonder how a human can make 100 knives with the tolerence the same from knife to knife.

I know I cant do it. I have to many phone calls and kids running around to be that accurate.
They must be super skilled or im just old and crusty..


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
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[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 11-21-2000).]
 
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