- Joined
- Dec 2, 1999
- Messages
- 9,910
Excuse me but Do you happen to have the phone # of that place that does the grind finishing and the laser etching? Bruce
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Grinding jigs and other technology, is it cheating?
- Thread starter Jonesy
- Start date
My definition of the term Handmade Knife is a knife that was made without the use of electricity. The tools require muscle power to work. I don't mean the muscle in your finger to flip a switch either. To be a true handmade knife it must be made with only muscle powered tools. I don't expect yall to agree with this because if you did there would be less than a dozen makers in the US that make handmade knives. As far as I know I am the only one who does it as a full time profession.
------------------
http://www.livelyknives.com
------------------
http://www.livelyknives.com
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2000
- Messages
- 17
Darrel, there is a machine for putting a final finsh on blades blades, It's call a tumbler with ceramic triangle tumbling media. Have you seen the Sebenzas or Round-eye folders with the squirly patterns? It looks like a eratic swirly patterns. I worked in a deburring department for a year removing heat treating scale and tumbling a final finish on steel and aluminum carabiners. You can use a small rock tumbler or brass vibe (I used a huge rotary tumbler that would do 1000 parts)and the media is available form McMaster Carr. If you wanted a mirror polish this would put a semi matte finish that would require very little polishing (I only suggest it for folder parts)
- Joined
- Dec 3, 1999
- Messages
- 9,437
First, I have to give kudos to lively. He's right, what he does is truly handmade.
I respect that tremendously.
But to shed just a little more light from another angle on this big, drawn out ho-down. Tonight I was showing a fighter I just finished to a guy that's a major hitter in the prosthetics field. This guy uses all of the very latest technology to produce very realistic limbs out of the latest materials. The old peg has been replaced by titanium and carbon fiber (hence a job that pays $30,000 a day!!!) ANYWAY.
As he fondled this knife that I was pretty proud of the flow of, he starts telling me how I could automate this procedure, and this one, and this one.....
And I somehow didn't see where I fit into the knifemaking part anymore. I was even a little offended.
Huh..... made me think.
Nick
I respect that tremendously.
But to shed just a little more light from another angle on this big, drawn out ho-down. Tonight I was showing a fighter I just finished to a guy that's a major hitter in the prosthetics field. This guy uses all of the very latest technology to produce very realistic limbs out of the latest materials. The old peg has been replaced by titanium and carbon fiber (hence a job that pays $30,000 a day!!!) ANYWAY.
As he fondled this knife that I was pretty proud of the flow of, he starts telling me how I could automate this procedure, and this one, and this one.....
And I somehow didn't see where I fit into the knifemaking part anymore. I was even a little offended.
Huh..... made me think.
Nick
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2000
- Messages
- 17
Ok now here is a final note and a question all knifemakers must answer...
Are you making a profit or is this just a costly hobby?
Be truthful... tool costs, show costs, ad's, time, are you showing a profit? Are you in this to show a profit or is it a glorified metal class?
Making knives one at a time... taking the time to polish and rub out each scratch is very costly and time consuming. Only the best known knifemakers can afford to profit from a slow one at a time handmade knife (I will see one this weekend, Phil Boguzinski)
I make anywhere from 4 to 10 knives at a time... profile 10, grind 10, heart treat 10...
I don't know who is profiting from knifemaking but, I have to work full time and then spend 2 hours a night in the shop just to make a extra $500 to $800 a month in profit.
Are you making a profit or is this just a costly hobby?
Be truthful... tool costs, show costs, ad's, time, are you showing a profit? Are you in this to show a profit or is it a glorified metal class?
Making knives one at a time... taking the time to polish and rub out each scratch is very costly and time consuming. Only the best known knifemakers can afford to profit from a slow one at a time handmade knife (I will see one this weekend, Phil Boguzinski)
I make anywhere from 4 to 10 knives at a time... profile 10, grind 10, heart treat 10...
I don't know who is profiting from knifemaking but, I have to work full time and then spend 2 hours a night in the shop just to make a extra $500 to $800 a month in profit.
I can relate to your feelings of almost being offended by your friends words. I get the same thing from some of my friends. They come over to my shop and they say things like...You know what you need is a few hired hands and this machine and that machine if you want to make some serious coin. I try to explain that I am primarily an artist and that money is secondary. I am interested in making money of course. I am not independantly wealthy. Far from it. I do OK and that's good enough. The exploration of the art is where I get my thrills and that is worth a lot to me. That goes through one ear and out the other. They mean well but they just don't get it.
------------------
http://www.livelyknives.com
------------------
http://www.livelyknives.com
Excellent question Boyer Blades!
I posted a lengthy reply to your post but somehow it got deleted when the admistrator moved the new topic back to this thread so here it goes again.
Money is not my primary goal as a knifemaker but it is very important. I made and sold my first knives in 1974 but could not make a living at it until 1992 when I finally decided to go full time as a professional knifemaker. The first 3 years were a bitch. Once I started making knives the Neo-Tribal way I started doing much better. Some find this hard to believe and would guess that it would be harder to make a living at knifemaking this way. The main reason I am doing better now economically is because my overhead is so low. I don't have electric or gas bills for my shop. I don't have to constantly buy expensive grinding belts. Machinery up keep is next to nothing. I make my own charcoal for fuel. My tools have all been purchased from yard sales and used tool stores and the occational bargin on ebay. I have less than $1000 rapped up in my knifemaking shop and most of that is in the open air ramada style structure. I buy my steel from auto salvage yards in the form of leaf and coil springs from 1950 and '60's US made vehicles(5160). Most of the price of my knives is profit. I was a union journeyman carpenter before I went full time as a knifemaker and I am making approximately the same wages now. This is still a modest income compared to most but it's enough to me since I doing exactly what I want to do. I have the same nagging little money problems that most folks do but we survive fairly well. I don't have a mommy, daddy or uncle sam to pay my bills. Knifemaking pays my bills. My wife does have to work too and a "normal job" for us to make ends meet but isn't this normal for most families these days. I feel I make a respectable income and it is far from just being a hobby for me. I have to admit though that my wife's income is neccesary too. I have two daughter's ages 16 and 18 and the oldest is now in college. I am looking forward to them growing up and making thier own way in the world becuase they are tapping this well dry. They eat like horses! None the less my profession is a legitimate one with an income.
------------------
http://www.livelyknives.com
I posted a lengthy reply to your post but somehow it got deleted when the admistrator moved the new topic back to this thread so here it goes again.
Money is not my primary goal as a knifemaker but it is very important. I made and sold my first knives in 1974 but could not make a living at it until 1992 when I finally decided to go full time as a professional knifemaker. The first 3 years were a bitch. Once I started making knives the Neo-Tribal way I started doing much better. Some find this hard to believe and would guess that it would be harder to make a living at knifemaking this way. The main reason I am doing better now economically is because my overhead is so low. I don't have electric or gas bills for my shop. I don't have to constantly buy expensive grinding belts. Machinery up keep is next to nothing. I make my own charcoal for fuel. My tools have all been purchased from yard sales and used tool stores and the occational bargin on ebay. I have less than $1000 rapped up in my knifemaking shop and most of that is in the open air ramada style structure. I buy my steel from auto salvage yards in the form of leaf and coil springs from 1950 and '60's US made vehicles(5160). Most of the price of my knives is profit. I was a union journeyman carpenter before I went full time as a knifemaker and I am making approximately the same wages now. This is still a modest income compared to most but it's enough to me since I doing exactly what I want to do. I have the same nagging little money problems that most folks do but we survive fairly well. I don't have a mommy, daddy or uncle sam to pay my bills. Knifemaking pays my bills. My wife does have to work too and a "normal job" for us to make ends meet but isn't this normal for most families these days. I feel I make a respectable income and it is far from just being a hobby for me. I have to admit though that my wife's income is neccesary too. I have two daughter's ages 16 and 18 and the oldest is now in college. I am looking forward to them growing up and making thier own way in the world becuase they are tapping this well dry. They eat like horses! None the less my profession is a legitimate one with an income.
------------------
http://www.livelyknives.com
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2000
- Messages
- 2,330
This post reminds me of a short chat I had recently with Keith Coleman about ordering one of his knives. The model I wanted had a 4" blade and I asked about getting one slightly smaller and some other changes to the design. I also asked if there were going to be an extra wait or charge for this customization. I think he was a little offended
In short, he told me the knife could be made as small or as large as I wanted, any way I wanted. For me, this is the best part of what custom knifemaking is about - to have a very personal and special knife made for you as a customer by a craftsman, not just something churned out for the faceless masses. I put in the order the next day.
Red
------------------
"Praise not the day until evening has come;a sword until it is tried; ice until it has been crossed; beer until it has been drunk" - Viking proverb
[This message has been edited by redvenom (edited 11-05-2000).]
In short, he told me the knife could be made as small or as large as I wanted, any way I wanted. For me, this is the best part of what custom knifemaking is about - to have a very personal and special knife made for you as a customer by a craftsman, not just something churned out for the faceless masses. I put in the order the next day.
Red
------------------
"Praise not the day until evening has come;a sword until it is tried; ice until it has been crossed; beer until it has been drunk" - Viking proverb
[This message has been edited by redvenom (edited 11-05-2000).]
- Joined
- Nov 13, 1998
- Messages
- 2,598
A bunch of good opinions here for sure. Heres mine: What fun is grindig a blade using so much assistance that you dont "feel" whats going on with each pass?
Its taken me 3 years to really feel whats happening both under the hammer when im forging and on the platten when im grinding. Seems like using any sort of fixture would take this "feel" away.
I can go into any shop and make a knife. If i had relied on a fixture or some other "aid" to make knives, this wouldnt be the case.
I have nothing against maxumizing effeciency in the making process, but for me i dont want to loose that hard earned ability to use as little machinery as possible and make a nice blade.
Heck, call me a glutton i still enjoy using a file for alot of my work.
------------------
"Never hit a man unless you must, but if you must, knock him down" Teddy Roosevelt.
www.lameyknives.com
Its taken me 3 years to really feel whats happening both under the hammer when im forging and on the platten when im grinding. Seems like using any sort of fixture would take this "feel" away.
I can go into any shop and make a knife. If i had relied on a fixture or some other "aid" to make knives, this wouldnt be the case.
I have nothing against maxumizing effeciency in the making process, but for me i dont want to loose that hard earned ability to use as little machinery as possible and make a nice blade.
Heck, call me a glutton i still enjoy using a file for alot of my work.
------------------
"Never hit a man unless you must, but if you must, knock him down" Teddy Roosevelt.
www.lameyknives.com
Some have stated that those who use jigs and fixtures are not "knifemakers". If they designed and built those fixtures themselves, then certainly they are "toolmakers", aren't they? Is a "toolmaker" less than a "knifemaker"? I think not. How can one find fault in a man using not just his hands, but his mind as a tool?
- Joined
- Mar 7, 1999
- Messages
- 247
For discussions like these, that have the potential to go on and on, there needs to be an agree-upon definition of terms, like "handmade," otherwise, nothing gets settled. Websters "handmade:" A female servant or attendant -- oops sorry, this Florida vote count has me really messed up -- "made by hand, rather than by machine."
The def. for machine is too long for me at this hour.
A machine tool -- power-operated machine, as a lathe (grinder?), used for general cutting and shaping of metal.
Tim, I'd say your passion is supported by the definitions in a very real sense.
Custom -- made specially for individual customers.
So, you can have a custom knife made by a machine, operated by a machinist (skilled operator), but I wouldn't say it's handmade and only cheating if it's sold under any other pretext.
I don't how who does the heat treat comes into play.
I also looked up knifemaker -- it ain't there. It's cutler.
Make it how you want, but call it what it is, it's that simple.
The def. for machine is too long for me at this hour.
A machine tool -- power-operated machine, as a lathe (grinder?), used for general cutting and shaping of metal.
Tim, I'd say your passion is supported by the definitions in a very real sense.
Custom -- made specially for individual customers.
So, you can have a custom knife made by a machine, operated by a machinist (skilled operator), but I wouldn't say it's handmade and only cheating if it's sold under any other pretext.
I don't how who does the heat treat comes into play.
I also looked up knifemaker -- it ain't there. It's cutler.
Make it how you want, but call it what it is, it's that simple.
- Joined
- Dec 14, 1998
- Messages
- 4,870
Folks,
It seems that there are makers that feel that a hand made knife is a hand made knife. Well if your going to be pure like a virgin USE dirt and stones to make your knives.
I feel that some cant afford to make the knives with cnc and tumblers ect. So they whine and point there fingers. Do you think a cnc machine just makes a part? I dont think so. Its **** in **** out. Just like most everything in life.
Here is what the KMG says.
The knife must be made in your shop by the maker.
That says it all in my book. There are no limits to the process's a maker can use in that statement. If you refuse to take advantage of technology thats your fault. Quit whinning.
The crime is this. Folks who farm there MAJOR
knife parts out that are completly finished and just screw them together. Thats a crime in my book. Does that make since?
I make all of my knives in my shop. THAT is a custom knife made by me (my son helps here)
I do buy my thumbers and pivots. I dont want to even begin to try to make them . I have a lathe but it wont hold the tolerence required or these parts. I buy my screws to. DO you? Do you buy pins and steel? Handle materials?
If your gonna shout foul, then come clean .. Make everything from nothing.
I have a truth in making statement on my page. Do you ?
I agree with most here . Tell your clients where your knives are made . Tell them what you dont make. I do, do you?
I feel this applies here to : Live and let live. I drive a car . Do you ? Or are you still riding a horse? Progress wins every battle in the long run.
BTW
I alway have an open door policy at my shop for other makers and clients.
Soapbox off
------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
NEW WEB SITE TAKE A LOOK!!!!!!!!!
New projects and pics to look at !!!!
It seems that there are makers that feel that a hand made knife is a hand made knife. Well if your going to be pure like a virgin USE dirt and stones to make your knives.
I feel that some cant afford to make the knives with cnc and tumblers ect. So they whine and point there fingers. Do you think a cnc machine just makes a part? I dont think so. Its **** in **** out. Just like most everything in life.
Here is what the KMG says.
The knife must be made in your shop by the maker.
That says it all in my book. There are no limits to the process's a maker can use in that statement. If you refuse to take advantage of technology thats your fault. Quit whinning.
The crime is this. Folks who farm there MAJOR
knife parts out that are completly finished and just screw them together. Thats a crime in my book. Does that make since?
I make all of my knives in my shop. THAT is a custom knife made by me (my son helps here)
I do buy my thumbers and pivots. I dont want to even begin to try to make them . I have a lathe but it wont hold the tolerence required or these parts. I buy my screws to. DO you? Do you buy pins and steel? Handle materials?
If your gonna shout foul, then come clean .. Make everything from nothing.
I have a truth in making statement on my page. Do you ?
I agree with most here . Tell your clients where your knives are made . Tell them what you dont make. I do, do you?
I feel this applies here to : Live and let live. I drive a car . Do you ? Or are you still riding a horse? Progress wins every battle in the long run.
BTW
I alway have an open door policy at my shop for other makers and clients.
Soapbox off
------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
NEW WEB SITE TAKE A LOOK!!!!!!!!!
New projects and pics to look at !!!!
At no time in my posts did I say one way is better than the other. Do you?
I am not trying to be an elitist. I do things in a primitive manner simply because it is the way I have the most fun in my exploration as a knifemaker. To each his own and live and let live sounds good to me. I have my ideas about what handmade is and I am more than willing to let everybody else have theirs. I don't feel this topic is about what's better. It is about defining a term and that's obviously never going to happen universally. If you claim to know what's better I would have to respond that it is all relative. Money and ease are not the better way in every mind. Satisfaction is my primary goal.
------------------
http://www.livelyknives.com
I am not trying to be an elitist. I do things in a primitive manner simply because it is the way I have the most fun in my exploration as a knifemaker. To each his own and live and let live sounds good to me. I have my ideas about what handmade is and I am more than willing to let everybody else have theirs. I don't feel this topic is about what's better. It is about defining a term and that's obviously never going to happen universally. If you claim to know what's better I would have to respond that it is all relative. Money and ease are not the better way in every mind. Satisfaction is my primary goal.
------------------
http://www.livelyknives.com
- Joined
- Dec 14, 1998
- Messages
- 4,870
Liv,
Please dont misunderstand my point. I appologise if my statement was to strong here. The statment is general, not about you.
I dont see your name mentioned
It was not intended to strike a nerve.
Im not trying to say that one way is better than another. As for an elitist... No I would feel that your way would be on the other end of the stick (this is just my opinion)not an insult.
I feel that giving the customer the best knife for the dollar precision wise, style wise is what an elite knife is. Your statments above are correct Liv. The term handmade or custom will never be the same to everyone. We all have a vision of what that is.
If you feel better making knives in the manner you do great. Thats the point. I feel one way is better than the next--- sure. Its my shop and my way. You have your opinion (your shop your way).
I do feel that putting someone down for the way they build knives with the knowledge that they have is not a good thing (as long as they make them in there shop themself). Its the knifemakers vision that counts. Faster and more money is what im worried about. Yes some may feel that one way is faster than another. If you havent done it how can you compare?
"As long as the MAKER makes the knives and its done in their shop its their version of a custom handmade knife". I feel this is universal term as best we know it. If the maker has others doing the work then it is a factory.
Thats what the KMG says is right so I just follow there rules.
Splitting hairs about handmade is something you seem to think is the difference . I beg to differ. This argument, as you stated will never be over. Totally handmade in my mind is starting with dirt and rocks. Other than that you are using hand tools, steel that you buy, pins, ect. Nothing elite about that. Sure I feel that finding ones way of doing things is great. We all like what we do or for gods sake we wouldnt be making knives would we?
I do feel once again that folks who farm out parts, completlety finished when they get to there shop, for assembly is BS.
Thats a factory knife not a custom handmade knife.
------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
NEW WEB SITE TAKE A LOOK!!!!!!!!!
New projects and pics to look at !!!!
[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 11-21-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 11-21-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 11-21-2000).]
Please dont misunderstand my point. I appologise if my statement was to strong here. The statment is general, not about you.
I dont see your name mentioned
Im not trying to say that one way is better than another. As for an elitist... No I would feel that your way would be on the other end of the stick (this is just my opinion)not an insult.
I feel that giving the customer the best knife for the dollar precision wise, style wise is what an elite knife is. Your statments above are correct Liv. The term handmade or custom will never be the same to everyone. We all have a vision of what that is.
If you feel better making knives in the manner you do great. Thats the point. I feel one way is better than the next--- sure. Its my shop and my way. You have your opinion (your shop your way).
I do feel that putting someone down for the way they build knives with the knowledge that they have is not a good thing (as long as they make them in there shop themself). Its the knifemakers vision that counts. Faster and more money is what im worried about. Yes some may feel that one way is faster than another. If you havent done it how can you compare?
"As long as the MAKER makes the knives and its done in their shop its their version of a custom handmade knife". I feel this is universal term as best we know it. If the maker has others doing the work then it is a factory.
Thats what the KMG says is right so I just follow there rules.
Splitting hairs about handmade is something you seem to think is the difference . I beg to differ. This argument, as you stated will never be over. Totally handmade in my mind is starting with dirt and rocks. Other than that you are using hand tools, steel that you buy, pins, ect. Nothing elite about that. Sure I feel that finding ones way of doing things is great. We all like what we do or for gods sake we wouldnt be making knives would we?
I do feel once again that folks who farm out parts, completlety finished when they get to there shop, for assembly is BS.
Thats a factory knife not a custom handmade knife.
------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
NEW WEB SITE TAKE A LOOK!!!!!!!!!
New projects and pics to look at !!!!
[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 11-21-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 11-21-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 11-21-2000).]
"dirt and stones"
That's sounds like it would make an excellent knifemaking video.
------------------
http://www.livelyknives.com
That's sounds like it would make an excellent knifemaking video.
------------------
http://www.livelyknives.com
- Joined
- Dec 14, 1998
- Messages
- 4,870
Ya lets do it "The dirt and stone knifemaking coarse"
I went to your page Tim Nice knives!
------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
NEW WEB SITE TAKE A LOOK!!!!!!!!!
New projects and pics to look at !!!!
I went to your page Tim Nice knives!
------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
NEW WEB SITE TAKE A LOOK!!!!!!!!!
New projects and pics to look at !!!!
Thanks! I've admired your work for many years.
I really do think that would make an excellent video. Make a knife from scratch. Nothing but raw resources for the steel blade and tools. Wear nothing but hides and face paint squating on the ground using a rock for hammer and anvil. Charcoal forge of course. Maybe it's just me?
Different paths for sure but don't forget any knifemaker is BETTER than regular people.
------------------
http://www.livelyknives.com
I really do think that would make an excellent video. Make a knife from scratch. Nothing but raw resources for the steel blade and tools. Wear nothing but hides and face paint squating on the ground using a rock for hammer and anvil. Charcoal forge of course. Maybe it's just me?
Different paths for sure but don't forget any knifemaker is BETTER than regular people.
------------------
http://www.livelyknives.com
- Joined
- Dec 14, 1998
- Messages
- 4,870
Tim
Your right! Every knifemaker has there own aura.
That would be a great vidieo.
Make a smelter and smelt the blade steel. Then forge it from the cake with native type tools.
Question? Wood will not get hot enough will it? Would the charcoal have to be made or would you find and dig the coal? That would be a sweet film.
------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
NEW WEB SITE TAKE A LOOK!!!!!!!!!
New projects and pics to look at !!!!
[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 11-21-2000).]
Your right! Every knifemaker has there own aura.
That would be a great vidieo.
Make a smelter and smelt the blade steel. Then forge it from the cake with native type tools.
Question? Wood will not get hot enough will it? Would the charcoal have to be made or would you find and dig the coal? That would be a sweet film.
------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
NEW WEB SITE TAKE A LOOK!!!!!!!!!
New projects and pics to look at !!!!
[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 11-21-2000).]
I would make the charcoal. I don't think I could pull off such a video yet. I am not that skilled in every aspect of all the primitive processes. Smelting for one would stop me right now. I know it can be done. I'm working towards it, but it will take some years of learning first. I just gave up electricity in my knifemaking around 6 months ago so I'm still a beginer at trying to rediscover the old ways. It has been in the back of my mind for quite some time. I'm making progress on my journey backwards if that makes any sense.
------------------
http://www.livelyknives.com
------------------
http://www.livelyknives.com
Hey Darrel, Whats an arua? LOL Dont tell me you have a halo too?
I make jigs for one purpose or other on all my knives, of which I make only one each. The set up time for making my knives includes this process which makes it safer and better to get the results you want.
Lets say you made a blade and had a lot of time in it and then scrapped it with that last cut because you were not willing to take the time to make a fixture to hold it correctly. Thus, with the following string of expletives and self deridations, you should certainly be foolish to ever make the same mistake again.I have, and that will hopefully be one mistake I wont make again.
Ron Appleton
P.S. I buy all the ball bearings I use, is that cheating? I tried makin em but they just dont come out right!
[This message has been edited by Muskydog (edited 11-21-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Muskydog (edited 11-21-2000).]
I make jigs for one purpose or other on all my knives, of which I make only one each. The set up time for making my knives includes this process which makes it safer and better to get the results you want.
Lets say you made a blade and had a lot of time in it and then scrapped it with that last cut because you were not willing to take the time to make a fixture to hold it correctly. Thus, with the following string of expletives and self deridations, you should certainly be foolish to ever make the same mistake again.I have, and that will hopefully be one mistake I wont make again.
Ron Appleton
P.S. I buy all the ball bearings I use, is that cheating? I tried makin em but they just dont come out right!
[This message has been edited by Muskydog (edited 11-21-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Muskydog (edited 11-21-2000).]