Gripes

For some reason whenever I talk about using hand tools people assume I'm a hobbiest. I'm not. This is my profession and depend on it to pay my bills. Here is an example of what can be done without expensive machinery from another professional knifemaker. Tai Goo. He made the blade out of bottle caps and cast iron sewer pipe. Neo-Tribal Damascus? No power hammer. No expensive grinders. Just basic tools. It can be done and it can be done as a professional too.
<img src=http://www.photoloft.com/view/exportimage.asp?s=xpag&i=3583994&w=545&h=354></A>

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http://www.livelyknives.com
 
I would like to point out that overhead is a major factor to consider in a shop full of expensive machinery. How much in a month does it cost to stay in production when you have a high tech shop? I figure mine runs me around $100 a month. This includes everything. I don't need any more tools. I don't have to buy expensive grinding belts and on and on. I imagine some shops cost over a thousand dollars a month to keep a float. This means I have to make less knives to make the same amount of money. Less knife sales too means less advertising and so on. I'm not putting anyone down for using high tech tools. I'm just saying it isn't neccessary.

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http://www.livelyknives.com
 
I agree. My "shop" (the backyard and a corner of my parents basement) is very low budget. I bought a Grizzly grinder because the 1x30 took too long and was underpowered. I use hand files a lot, drill press that sucks, wobbly vise on a shaky workbench. Why? I don't have the money or space to get new stuff. I have to grind outside, which isnt fun in the winter. I would love to have a bandsaw instead of the hacksaw, but I will wait till I can afford one from Harbor Freight. I buy new stuff as I can. If not, I make do with what I have. Eventually, I would like to buy a better grinder, build a little shop with HT oven, etc, but I can't right now. I have to pay for college, too. It's a pain being low budget, but it is also fun. I'm not worried about paying the stuff off. It is already paid off. I get what I can afford now, not what I can afford in a few years. If I can't pay for it now, I dont get it. I think a great knife can be made w/o spending a lot of money. More expensive is nice, and may improve quality and efficency, but sometimes it jsut isnt worth the cost.
 
I would think there are a few types of knives that take too long to make without the use of electicity. How do you cut that thin slot in titanium for a liner lock? Bruce
 
You know if everyone had the same equiptment and materials to work, and made the same kind of knives we just as well leave it to Camillus to make them all! I would LOVE to have a CNC mill to make parts, I want to get as many HIGH QUALITY knives into peeoples hands as I can. On the other hand, I got to handle and use a knife made by Tim Lively Neo Tribal style with minimul equipment. It is a knife he made for Ron Hood and was videoed for Volume 9 of the Hoods Woods Survival video series. Also got to handle on of Tai's knives he made in the video. They were great blades! I once in a while make a knife with all hand tools just to know that I can. I guess is whatever trips your trigger! I certainly respect the Neo guys skills, and know they respect mine.
 
Good thread.

When I started making knives in 1972, I had a few files and a Milwuakee hand drill. It sucked. I had just started my Army career and had to save for a month just to buy the files.
Times have changed. Some of the makers you have in mind started out like I did. Now, they have a nice, well equipped shop, and are still making knives. That says it all.
It's called desire. I had it, they had it. Don't complain about the grinders and CNCs and DRO lathes that we use. We paid our dues and kept the desire thru the whole process. We wanted to make a better knife, and as George said, make more of them. Gotta put shoes on the kids, you know.

Make a few knives, sell them, and put the money back into better equipment. Keep doing that for 25 years or so and you will have a nice, well equipped shop and not have to drive a big truck for J.B. Hunt.
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As I told my new son in law as I'm teaching him knifemaking - "you don't know how lucky you are, having a nice, well equipped shop to start your knifemaking career".

Hope you all have a real prosperous New Year.
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Someday I hope to own all that stuff. I do not know if I want to become full time or not. I love knives and I love building them. I always have. I love crafting things. I had a custom pistol grip business for a while that did alright. I plan on always enjoying knife building whether or not I do it full time or not. It is fun and very rewarding and occasionally frustrating. Nothing worthwhile comes easy though. I agree with alot of you. I have read several things about this neo tribal stuff and their is something to say about primitive. I think their would be a real satisafaction in doing things primitively although I think I will at least use a cheap grinder instead of all hand files. My biggest dream is to be able to pass all of my lifes skills including knifemaking to my son. Well I better go my wife somehow managed to get packing tape in her hair. A little too much new years celebration I suppose. Go figure.

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" I am a shootist."
Clay Allison
" Does this mean we are bladists?"
Vaquero57
McAlpin Bladesmithing
 
Kit I am not complaining. I appologize to anyone I may have offended. It seems like alot of you probably think I am a whiner. I just think beginners should not get intimidated by all this stuff. I think more books should talk about how to start out and what to move into instead of talking about the big stuff up front because most of us will take years to get there. In This new book I was talking about, he was talking about equipment a guy should need or have and the stuff he was shgowing was high dollar stuff in his shop. I will have to read again but I don't thgink he gave the impression of giving any options. In other words it SEEMED as though he was saying you NEED these things to be a knifemaker. I am sure he wasn't. Let me repeat myself so as not to offend anyone. I AM SURE HE WASN'T. It just came across that way at first. I saw some of his knives(folders linerlocks) and I thought cool maybe someday I would like to build some. Then being new I thought well I do not have that kind of shop and maybe for linerlocks you do need fancier tools. So I guess I will stick to fixed blades. Adios

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" I am a shootist."
Clay Allison
" Does this mean we are bladists?"
Vaquero57
McAlpin Bladesmithing
 
Vaquero,
I didn't take offense. With my post, I meant to show that we all start off with whatever we can afford and work upward from there. Got to have the desire. Almost without exception, we all started out with what we could afford at the time.
No matter what you hear or read, better equipment and tools, if you have the ability, makes for better knives.
I can still make a good knife with files and sandpaper but in the same time, with good equipment, I can make a bunch of real nice Model 4 and Model 16 folders. Putting shoes on the kids is #1 priority
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This always happens. Please don't misunderstand me. I respect makers from all camps but I can't keep my mouth shut when I hear you have to have QUALITY equipment to make QUALITY knives. And the QUALITY equipment is always the most expensive. Can I make knives as fast as the guys with all the equipment? No. Can I make quality knives? Yes. The reason I get so defensive whenever this subject comes up is because I started my career as a stock removalist. I sold many of my prized possesions and spent my tax returns and my savings and maxed out my credit cards so I could buy the fancy grinders and all the other tools that I believed it took to make quality knives. Then I began my studies under Tai Goo right at the same time he came up with Neo-Tribal and I found out I didn't need all that stuff. I found that even though I made less knives I made the same money. My best year as a stock removalist I made 125 knives. I make around 50 a year now. My overhead is so low I can make the same amount of money making less than half as many knives.
I have seen too many people interested in making knives that get discouraged because they are under the impression that they have to have all the tools to make quality knives. Some probably just give up and walk away from it all. This is a shame. They might not be able to make knives the way some of the top pros do with all the tools but they can still make quality knives. Just not the same kind of knife using the same technique. It is a totally different way of thinking and working but it doesn't make the knives any lesser in quality. Just different. Ron Hood showed my one of Rob's knives and the feel in the hand was sweet. Tom's knives are awesome too in their way. Very clean and comfortable looking. I have no problems with the way these folks make their knives. I sincerely admire them. I am not saying it is better to make your knives without the use of expensive equipment but I can't stand by and say nothing when I read that you have to have expensive equipment in order to do quality work either. It will cause some to never try and I think that would be unfortunate. I have done it both ways. What benefit would I have to lie to yall about it? If you can afford to buy the equipment. Far out! Go for it if that what your into. If you can't afford it then please don't walk away from knifemaking. There is another way. We call it Neo-Tribal.

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http://www.livelyknives.com
 
I really respect everybodys opinions here. Really neat. Tim is right. Bruce Evans said that alot of people will tell you that a certain way is not the best way to do things. But over a centuey ago the blacksmiths in this country were doing alot of these things these ways and alot of their knives are still around. I drive a toyota, maybe someone else drives a Chevy and so on.

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" I am a shootist."
Clay Allison
" Does this mean we are bladists?"
Vaquero57
McAlpin Bladesmithing
 
I also started with no power tools. I think that helped me develop better skills after i acquired the grinders. I am a construction contractor and we can only afford to use the best tools. It does make a big difference time wise. Almost any power tool will be better than no power tool.
 
One thing that Tim hinted upon is a whole "nother" aspect. I do stock removal and OVERHEAD can be unbelievable!!! The amount we spend on just the the basic supplies have tended to rise the past couple of years considerably. The "tools" of the trade are not the only expense. Once you have them, they are there. The consumables (such as belts, steel, handle material,etc) are ultimately the the biggest expense.

I did my first (kit) knife with a drill stand, a hand belt sander turned upside down and clamped in a vise and lots and lots of elbow grease.

I have slowly collected a piece of equipment here and there over the years and I am always looking for something to "make life easier". All of this comes with time. After my first "knife" I went down and splurged on a "real" drill press. It was a $99 Ryobi from Home Depot. I was in high cotton! I still use it. I then bought a Sears benchtop 4X36 grinder. Its still in the shop. We all start somewhere. One thing that must be remembered is that most of us have been there. Quite a few of the folks that frequent this forum have been making knives over 20 years. I have been doing it for about 6 years and I still have a ways to go.

 
I have to agree with what EVERYBODY is saying here !!!!!
I started out with files and sandpaper only then built machines trying to make things easier on myself.at first I thought that I needed all the fancy machines to do the job and wanted to do all the different jobs with machines and get away from any hand tools.after 9 years I now use more hand tools and less equipment.I have found that as my skills progressed I couldn't get the FIT and FINISH I was after with the homemade equipment that I had so the hand tools had to take up the slack.I agree that it takes allot of practice and trial and error even when you get new and better equipment,I had Alex Daniels help me build a new grinder this summer and it's as good as any grinder I could have bought but it took me a few monts to get used to it kind of like starteing over,I now can get the grind that I have always wanted but was elluding me with out the help of files.The rest of my equipment is just bargain basement and what ever I could afford and trust me I didn't just get that overnight.The thought of new equipment is a dream that helps keep me trying to save money but when I have saved the money I step back and look at what I am doing and ask myself is it a real neccesity or just something that I want and how will it benefit the shop and if I feel that it isnt something that isnt going to be used allot I don't buy it.
If it wasn't for my desire to make quality knives that had the fit and finish that I wanted I would not be where I am today,I have seen some local guys at flea markets and gun shows that proudly sell there knives and the fit and finish is no where what I want on my knives but it's what they like and the knives still look good and are functional and people buy them,I don't look at another makers work as BOY YOU SHOULD FIX THIS OR THAT (unless I am asked how to fix this and that ) but instead I look at the man or woman making the knives,are they sincere in there trade are they knowledgable in the way they do the craft,Do they share with others there knowledge and will they help out a person on there first attempt and not look at them as if the new person is a thorn in there side.I have been at gun show's and heard makers tell people that they wont sell at a major knife show because they feel that there knives are just as good as any of the top makers knives but nobody was buying there work for the same prices or a little less,With this attitude I see why they didn't sell,And this attitude just turned my stomach and totally turned me off from there work and some of it was top notch but there ugly attitude showed in there knives.....
So what I am trying to say is Bring on the lowbuck shops and the high buck shops it doesnt matter because we are all BRITHERS in the craft of Knifemaking and we should never be jelouse of each other or be afraid to help each other out.Let's just all have fun and enjoy what we are doing from that first knife that we were all so proud to take out and show someone to that latest High dollar knife that we are just as proud of and can't wait to show off,and when that guy shows up with that first knife now matter how ruff just remember when you were in his shoes and how scared and proud you were when you showed it to the first knifemaker you met and how you felt when his reply was bad or good or how devastated you were when you got the brush off because he didn't have time to deal with you......
Sorry I was long winded here but I just had to add mt 2 cents worth,and If I made anybody mad it was not my intention and I will apologize now,Sorry.....
Happy New Year and Good luck in your knifemaking endevors through out the new year...
Bruce

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Bruce Evans Handcrafted Knives
The soul of the Knife begins in the Fire!!!!!
Member of,AKTI#A000223 and The American Bladesmith Society
 
If you want the very best book for the beginner, try Step by Step Knife Making by David Boye. Available at rodale.com for about $12. Thats where I started 20 years ago and as far as I know there is no better or more basic beginners book. Want to make knives without all the equipment, David will get you started!

Ted

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One thing no one has mentioned here..... that PICTURE IS AWESOME TIM!!!!!!!!! very, very, nice.
 
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