Gripes

The matter of fact formulas don't work for everybody. Are yall full time makers? Or are yall hobbyist trying to tell a professional knifemaker what it takes to make a living at making knives? Did you read that in a book somewhere? I'm living it!

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[This message has been edited by lively (edited 01-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by lively (edited 01-05-2001).]
 
Machines don't make good knives. Good knifemakers do. Some years ago I started out with a junky vise, filing blades from files. As time went by I tried to do better work and I tried to get better tools. Most good things come slowly. Knifemaking is a perfect example.Patience and desire are your best tools. If you buy or build the best tool you can afford, or figure out a way that you can do without it, thats the best you can do. Get on with making stuff. But, I gotta admit, most knifemakers are usually green with envy over other folks tools and knives, seems to be part of the makeup of the species. You fellas take care, mike
 
Knives have been my hobby and passion all my life, and I've made and sold a few -- for about enough to pay for the materials in em.
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That's okay by me, I don't try to make a living at it, and it makes me feel very good that someone is willing to part with any of their hard-earned money for something I made.

But now I'm making a few knives on request, and that's changed. Suddenly I'd like to get paid for my time too. I don't expect to, or more accurately I expect my time to be worth about $3 a day, and I'm still enjoying working on the knives. But you know what? I'm looking at my output, thinking how much faster and I think cheaper in belts it would be to be using a "real" grinder.

Part of this is surely fantasy, because I know good tools won't make a mediocre craftsman a better one, and part of it is clearly the tool jones at work; but part too is that I really believe I could do better at some functions with 4 or 5 times the horsepower and a platen I could get to the way I want -- in the same amount of time.

I've always subscribed to the notion one should use the best tools he can afford (whether it's a hammer or a banjo) to do his work, just because it lets his best come through more fully. Maybe knifemaking is less so than other endeavors, because you can in fact get the same results from files and paper you can from a machine shop. But given all those great and powerful tools, the vision to employ them creatively, and the patience and pride to do real craftsmanship, a knifemaker will create a whole lot more joy in his career than he would have with files and paper. It all comes down to time. Better tools make more time, and that's about all they can do. Just my simple opinion.

Now it's my turn to stir things up: Where do you draw the line with "sole authorship?" Philisophically I like the idea of doing all the work on a knife myself, but where does that start? Do I mine my own ore? You see the problem; sole authorship is kind of a misnomer, since no one can really do it "all."

This springs from a conversation with another metal worker (a sculptor, not a knifemaker), who maintains that he's better off buying everything he can right up to final finish than doing it himself, since his time is worth so much (to him) and since design and finish are all that anyone can "see." Everything else is just work.

This is an interesting idea to me, but my money is more precious to me than my time, so I'm still doing most of my own work.
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I'm curious as to other opinions.

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Dave Larsen
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The greatest prayer is patience
-Buddha
 
I have two addendums to the above post:

1. My discussion of tools and craftsmanship has no relation to the wonderful work of Tim Lively and other Tribal makers. This is to me almost a whole other realm, and I love it. And Mr Lively's approach also seems much more environmentally responsible than using a bunch of power and light to make a knife. It's another world, and I want to know more about it.

2. I found a contradiction in my buddy's assertion that everything but design and finish are work: I think it was Michealangelo who said "Work is the elimination of traces of work." That sounds like "finish" to me.
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Dave
 
Great discussion so far.

Tim, in answer to your question, I'm full time. Been that way for over 7 years. Been making since 72.

We each have our technique that works. Mine works for me. The only tool I have in the shop that I couldn't replace with a hand work process is the bead blaster. I make gray turds (utility types) and just haven't figured out a way to do it without that big cabinet.
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And, that is one beautiful knife, Tim.
 
Why get so upset about what the other guy has in his shop? I'm also sure there are many people around you who are more financialy well off . Do you go around upset about them? A lot of the makers who now may have a lot of equipment started off with very little. Some of these people are doing some pretty wonderfull work some of them even write books to help the rest of us out!
 
" He who dies with the most toys wins"

"the difference between men and boys is the price of there toy's"

All guys get excited over new tools,cars,Just anything that is Mechanical.And everybody has there own tastes in those toys.I know guys that say " I can make a knife to pay for that new machine and be using it next week" then I know guys that say " I can fix or build that machine then make a knife and say I even made the machine that I made this with"
Out of neccesity I fix or make my machines,But I have always wanted the nice store bought machines and soomeday maybe I will be able to get them but until then I can be proud of my work and my Machines.
So everybody has there own Ideas of how they want to make there knives,You know that is what makes the world go around without it getting stale and boring....The only type of makers I don't consider a true knifemaker is the one's that Buy a pre-made blade,a pre-made guard or bolster,and pre cut scales.Then puts them all to gether and calls it a hand made knife.
I don't want to make anybody mad becuse I know some people don't have the stuff to do it any other way,But wait they had files and sandpaper to finish it out with,then they had all it takes to make the whole knife from barstock up.No special equipment needed here just wanted.....
Bruce

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Bruce Evans Handcrafted Knives
The soul of the Knife begins in the Fire!!!!!
Member of,AKTI#A000223 and The American Bladesmith Society
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Tim and I have been around this subject before.
I think we finally agreed that there is more than one way of making your vision into a real life knife. To each his own.
Im a tool junkie and tech junkie also. Just my way of expressing myself.
I forge also to fill that void of the fire. The best of both worlds?
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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
Happy Holidays!

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 01-06-2001).]
 
CLOSED MINDED!!!!!!! Who are you calling closed minded!!!!! I represent that remark!!
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by tom mayo:
CLOSED MINDED!!!!!!! Who are you calling closed minded!!!!! I represent that remark!!</font>

Uhhh, Tom... Is this what you mean or are you making a pun?
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represent (rèp´rî-zènt´) verb, transitive
represented, representing, represents
1. a. To stand for; symbolize: The bald eagle represents the United States.

Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
 
Dave, I am unsure about sole authorship. I believe if the maker lets the public know what on the knife was not made by him and let the public know who did make it than that is the way to go. Kind of like auto mech. Some guys do only brakes and alignments, some guys do only transmissions, and some like me do everything. You get the point. Just do not take the credit where you shouldn't and everyone will be happy. Me personally I claim sole authorship for everything on my knives except the creation of the materials. And I usually mention to people that I had some internet help from my friends when a question arose. Should certain knifemakers get some credit for the creation of a knife just because they gave the maker some good advice that helped him out of a tough situation?

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" I am a shootist."
Clay Allison
" Does this mean we are bladists?"
Vaquero57
McAlpin Bladesmithing
 
Cory you're right, and I think virtually all makers will give credit where it's due. Your definition is the one I believe in too -- all the work is yours. You're the one who's influenced me to consider steels I can heat treat myself, just so I could claim sole authorship too. We'll see, won't we?
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Well, I'm going down to my piddly little grinder to burn my fingers on hot steel. Have a great day!

Dave
 
Sorry about the closed minded comment. That was closed minded of me to say.

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awesome..i say awesome thread now i know why i do the things i do.i make em cause i love em if there was no such thing as power tools i would still make em..it just might take a little longer.
Power tools magnify potential screw ups!!
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i keep grinding and grinding and it is still too short!!

[This message has been edited by cutline blades (edited 01-06-2001).]
 
I really like this post. I agree..the more things are complicated, power tools, etc, the greater chance of mess ups and more serious injuries. Look at me and the grizzly incident. It's harder to get injured using hacksaw and files, but it is still possible. I found a file today in my basement that rocks for stock removal. i think it was originally designed for wood use, one side is a rasp type but the smoother side is great for putting bevels in! Having lots of tools is great, stuff is more precise and faster than with hand tools, but you have to know how to do the stuff first. There is still a good amount of knowledge used either way. One is faster and more efficient with more potential for dangerous errors, the other is slower, more time consuming, draining and requires more TLC, but it is almost more fun because the knife was made by your own hands. Either way, you get a great knife! And usually some scars to tell friends about!
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That is a good point about safety. It would be real hard to hurt yourself seriously when you eliminate the power tools. Little scuffs and bruises happen more often but something serious would be tough to do. Especially if you where eye protection. The worst thing I do regularly is burns but then thats probably because I forge NAKED.
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[This message has been edited by lively (edited 01-06-2001).]
 
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