Grit "hamon"

C

Caden_Vekk

Joined
Feb 28, 2007
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184
I was thinking, and correct me if i'm wrong on this, but isn't a hamon the connecting line between the finer and rougher (small and large) grains of the steel caused by differential heat treating? And the hamon only shows after sanding and an acid bath? Taking the sanding into consideration, when you're sanding your blade the rough and fine grains will react differently to the same sand paper for the very reason that they are grained differently. So if the hamon is really a visible variation in the sanding, why not (when making a less expensive model) use differential sanding to create an artificial "hamon". Would this work? Or am i just crazy?
 
a hamon shows because of the different hardness of the steel, the hard steel polishing to a lighter color at the edge than the softer steel at the spine, it's not due to the fineness of the finish, the finish should be uniform. The hardness is why you can bring out a hammon with a light etch .
 
Yeah I know, but i was just wondering abou the "artificial hamon" if its possible. I know all about the hardened steel for the blade edge and the sftened steel for flexibility in the spine. I'm just saying if somone really wanted to for some odd reason, would this be possible.
 
The finer the hand sanded finish, the more visible the quench line or hamon is even before you etch it. Buffing seems to smear it, but you can still see a faint quench line on Bill Moran's later edge quenched 5160 knives even with the highly buffed finish. But in my limited experience, it is not highly visible even at 1500 -2000 grit unless you etch. I'm not sure exactly how the Japanese sword polishers do it, but my understanding is that they finish to a riduculously fine grit.
 
not try to be rude but i dont think i placed my question in the right way.

take a peice of rough non-heat treated steel in the shape of a knife blade. Would it be possible to make an "artificial hamon" (the appearance of a hamon but no really an actually hamon line from heat treating, sanding and acid baths treatmeants)by sanding the desired sections with different grits?
 
Caden_Vekk said:
not try to be rude but i dont think i placed my question in the right way.

take a peice of rough non-heat treated steel in the shape of a knife blade. Would it be possible to make an "artificial hamon" (the appearance of a hamon but no really an actually hamon line from heat treating, sanding and acid baths treatmeants)by sanding the desired sections with different grits?
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No...........
 
Caden_Vekk said:
hahaha good answer. thanks. any reason why?
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The ability of the human eye to see a hamon/temper line is the result of the difference in the metallurgical structure of the steel in the two different areas of the blade. It's all about the arrangement of the molecules of the steel at the microstructural level.

Polishing to a fine grit does keep the light rays that reflect off the blade from being dispersed and allows a hamon/temper line to be more easily visible by the human eye. Rough grit finish, such as a 300 grit finish may make it difficult to see a hamon because the light is reflected off of the blade at many different converging angles, causing what we see to be intermingled.

But, without the difference in the microstructure, which is what you're proposing, what you'll end up with is the look of a blade that was polished carefully on the edge and polished poorly at the spine. It's just deeper scratches in one area compared to another area of the blade.

Now for the coup de grace (sp?). You could polish the entire blade out to whatever grit you desire, then edge-etch it. Or you could even use red nail polish as a resist to paint on the spine. You could make a wild looking fake hamon line this way with the nail polish in place of the clay that is used to create a true hamon.

I would suggest though, that if you create a "fake" hamon that you represent it accurately. It should not be advertised as a hamon line, because a true hamon line is created through a specific heat treat process.

Ickie
 
An attempt at an "artificial hamon" will not look like a real hamon. The steel will etch the same no matter how it's sanded.

I can see the hamon on one of my blades from 60 grit all the way through finishing it.

It would be much easier and better looking to just do a hamon.

Good answer Scotticks, I was writing as you posted.
 
"Back in the day" of the original bastardization of the tanto into an Americanized version, some people would use this technique:

-Polish blade, high grit satin finish or better yet mirror.

-Apply two layers of masking tape.

-Using an Exacto knife, slice along the squiggly "transition" line to be.

-Remove edge portion of tape.

-Bead- or Sandblast exposed steel.

-Result: one real fake looking "hamon".

I bet Don remembers those on people's tables who'd be embarassed to admit it today.
 
Don Hanson III said:
An attempt at an "artificial hamon" will not look like a real hamon. The steel will etch the same no matter how it's sanded.

I can see the hamon on one of my blades from 60 grit all the way through finishing it.

It would be much easier and better looking to just do a hamon.

Good answer Scotticks, I was writing as you posted.
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Thanks. It actually has me thinking about this though. I could put an edge quench on one of my blades. I could then do a light etch and take a picture of the temper line with my camera. I could then use nail polish to put a resist up along the spine, but not cover up all of the light etch, trying to follow the original temper line, but parallel to it. This would give me a doubled temper line and three shades of gray. Hmmmmmmmm....it could have a very interesting look! Or maybe doing it in multiple stages, removing more and more fingernail polish as I go to get a weird smokey look.

I think I'll be experimenting with this for a while. This thread has my creative juices flowing! It may not work or look as good as my mind is thinking it will, but......it'll be fun playing and learning!!

Ickie
 
Don Hanson III said:
An attempt at an "artificial hamon" will not look like a real hamon. The steel will etch the same no matter how it's sanded.

I can see the hamon on one of my blades from 60 grit all the way through finishing it.

It would be much easier and better looking to just do a hamon.

Good answer Scotticks, I was writing as you posted.
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You are correct, Don. You can't get rid of a real clay quenched hamon even if you wanted to.,,,,lol I tried to tone down the one I did by sanding it a LOT with fine grit paper and that was after an etch time of only about 60 seconds...:D
 
If a hamon is created by proper clay coating and quenching technique, the display should be quite clear. Many cheap Chinese and other poorly made swords have sandblasted, or sanded in "hamon" lines. To anyone who knows a true hamon, these don't even look close. They also say,"Cheap Sword" loudly.
Stacy
 
I'm certain that the process in creating a true hamon is far easier than somehow producing an artificial one.
 
Scott, you know better - there are no 'molecules' in metal !!! It's just atoms , crystals and grains !!!
 
mete said:
Scott, you know better - there are no 'molecules' in metal !!! It's just atoms , crystals and grains !!!
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no molecules? then wheres the flash gordon era monomolecular-edge never-need-sharpening cut-though-steel-like-butter science fiction blades eh? ;)

I've never really understood the claims for mono-molecular materials being so super-duper, after all they're one molecule, if they hit another molecule wrong the whole thingwould disintegrate. And if you take it the other way, and rather than the entire blade (or more usually, string or line) being a single molecule the edge is simply sharpend to a single molecule wide, then it's just going to blunt as per normal, so why not refer to it as a super alloy rathe rthan a monomolecular edge...

/rant off

I prefer my movies with a grain of common sense in them :D conans cast sword has me splitting my sides, even as a 10 yr old I know better :P
 
Or the cast knife in the old Jim Bowie movie. (a ladle full of silvery room temperature mercury was used to simulate hot molten steel). The "molten metal" was poured into a blade shape depression, and Voila', a shiny finished bowie forms. The smith let it cool a bit, stuck it in a bucket of water, sharpened it....done.
Stacy
 
Kiwi303 said:
I've never really understood the claims for mono-molecular materials being so super-duper, after all they're one molecule, if they hit another molecule wrong the whole thingwould disintegrate.
Click to expand...

I dunno, single 'molecules' like diamonds, epoxy, silicone, polyester are pretty tough.
 
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