Grokking the M-1 Carbine

tyr_shadowblade said:
I hear tell that the fellow who designed this weapon did so from a prison cell. I also heard that this weapon was not originally intended for combat troops, but rather for non-combatants (mechanics, cooks, clerks, etc.) in the event they were overrun by the enemy.
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Actually, David Marshall Williams (the inventor, and also the inventor of the floating chamber system found originally in .22 LR chambered MG trainers and later, the Colt Ace) came up with the system on behalf of Winchester as a desperate grab for a piece of the service rifle contract pie, which -- if you consider that the Garand was already in production and the Johnson's supporters were raising hell, and we'll not mention the other systems which turned out a basically sound performance -- was rather useless in retrospect. The system, in service rifle garb, was tested at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds in October of 1940. On 31 October, the Ordnance Department concluded that, "...The rifle weighs 9.66 pounds with 5 round magazine. The mechanism is basically sound. Its novel gas system is basically sound. Its performance is very good in dust, but not in mud. Further test is warranted."

I am not aware that he was in prison while doing so. Regardless, he did it as a Winchester employee and it was their property if I understand the situation correctly.

Several years later, the government decided that it needed a semiautomatic carbine with more range than an M1911 and less encumberance than an M1, and to everyone's surprise (except, perhaps, David's), Winchester had a functional system and was able to crank out a prototype on a moment's notice. Wartime procurement is hell, and being able to whip up an example almost before it was asked for certainly doesn't hurt the selection process.

We all know what happened from there. :)

Kind of a neat story, and Williams is one of the more underrated American arms designers. Everyone knows Browning and Garand and Stoner, but who remembers Williams? And when you get right down to it, he pulled off the more challenging stunts. Producing a functional Browning MG in .22 LR? Browning himself probably couldn't have done that, or he would have. Impossible, but Williams pulled it off. (It even used similar belts.)

Some think of the Carbine as the world's first assault rifle. Others think of it as a mistake. I think of it as what's probably the life's work of a genius, and regardless of whatever role it holds today, I can find little wrong with it. It's marvellous for that reason if nothing else. I also think that it was appropriate for what it was intended to do -- replace pistols in the hands of those that didn't need rifles, but could use more than 50m of effective range with their weapons. The fact that it found its way onto the front line and at least held its own there is something, as it was never meant to do that. (Not that I blame anyone; given the choice between humping a Garand and a Carbine, I'd pick the Carbine any day. Sheesh. Like that even needs explaining.)

With today's wham-o-dyne bullet technology, I would think that it would be remarkably effective on personnel with a bit of care in selecting projectiles. The caliber itself is kind of neat, but wouldn't these be a hoot in 10mm? Oh yeah. It doesn't hurt to wish.

Cool story BTW, RWS. Betcha them gummint men never figured that those guns they passed out in the fourties would still be floating around today, huh? :D Stories like this warm my heart.
 
I wish that I still had mine. I picked up a 90%+ Winchester with the round bolt, flip rear sight and crossbolt safety at a pawn shop when I was in college for $225. After Saving Private Ryan came out I sold it for $675 to a guy that had to have an early carbine. I loved the profit at the time, but I wish that I still had it now.

Corbon has DPX ammo coming out for the .30 Carbine, and that should make it VERY effective.
 
I believe he was in prison for a death that occurred during a moonshining bust. He was working on the gun in prison, later released and employed by Winchester, where the design was perfected. You can find a fictionalized account of it in the Film Carbine Williams, with Jimmy Stewart.

Pat
 
I've handled/shot quite a few M1's and fired a couple of M2's and like them in general.
I've read lots of "reports" of lack of stopping power, or the lack of ability to penetrate the heavy layers of clothing on chinese troops during the Korean War. I honestly don't believe much of it. The M1 gets a bad rap.
As already mentioned....it was a replacement for the pistol or as a secondary weapon for gun crews. Lightweight, accurate enough, and fairly controlable in M2 config, it is a good gun. If I had to take a shot at a 100 or 200 meter enemy I would much rather be doing in with a M1 carbine than a .45 pistol.
I'll take a M2 over a Thompson for any serrious use, and I LOVE the Thompson.
I once overheard someone make ta foolish comment concerning M1 carbine's lack of stopping power while they were purchasing a 9mm hi point carbine. Oh yeah, lots more "stopping" power in the 9mm.
 
Anyone looked up the sectional density and BC for the 110 .308 bullet?

The Carbine is not exactly the victum of unfair press.


munk
 
As Vietnam was heating up there was a lot of talk about the US switching to an assault rifle with an intermediate catridge like the Russians had done.

One of the proposed ideas, and a fairly good one at that, was to take the millions of M1/M2 Carbines already in inventory and rebarrel them for 5.7mm Spitfire, aka the 5.7mm Johnson.

This was a pretty good little round that was essentially a .30 Carbine casing necked down to take a standard .224" jacketed bullet, much like the .222 remington, and the .223Rem/5.56mm NATO. A 5.7mm M1 Carbine would have a muzzle velocity of between 2700fps and 2800fps with a 45gr bullet, depending upon the load.

It was quite lethal at the 75 to 100 yard or less ranges that it was intended to be used at
 
While the carbine is a durable, easily maintained, reasonably accurate second line weapon it is woefully underpowered. I speak from both clinical and actual experience. The U.S. started receiving after action reports about the carbine stopping power problems almost immediately after its general issue. I was a Ordnance instructor at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Md. for several years and as a bachelor/history geek I spent many, many days reading ordnance reports from WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam on a variety of weapons (for fun!!!) In fact the marine corps suspended issue of the carbine during the Korean War due to the cartridges inabillity to stop korean/chinese troops after penetrating their heavy quilted uniforms. Had as much to do with light projectile weight, poor bullet design and cold weather affecting powder burn rate thus velocity as anything. As far as practical experience I worked in Central and South America for a while and saw people being shot/shot at and the aftermath. Saw one Nicaraguan take 5 round from a carbine and still shoot, move and communicate under his own power! This would not happen with a Garand, FAL, (insert you favorite battle rifle here). Jim
 
Good stuff, Jim, and welcome! :D

The Cor-Bon .30 Carbine ammo load is coming. I would guess (SWAG), based on their other ammo, 2,400 FPS and a hollow or soft point that will work.

The carbine polarizes people. Interesting. I used to have a strong opinion about it- til I shot one- and now have a strong opinion the other way.


Mike
 
One problem with a .30 Carbine is that even though it's a .30 caliber, in real world ballistic damage a .223 smokes it, and you can get a Mini-14 pretty inexpensively.
 
The carbine does tend to polarize people. I've spoken to vets who loved it, hated it, or hated it because it was one more thing to carry around/clean. For me the most difficult part is people keep comparing it to rifles, current or past. While it is a carbine it was not intended to replace a rifle......just a pistol.
Next time a make up Gel I'll do some FMJ tests with it, maybe a couple of side by side against a .45 FMJ. Clothed, bare, thick Clothing, and so forth.
I'll even pick up some modern stuff and take it for a spin.
I think the box of truth people did this at one point.


Here we go.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot8.htm

Bigkahuna, I would love to see some data about the powder burning in those loadings below freezing. Not doubting you here, but low velocities would make
an interesting test.

Disclaimer:
I do not consider the carbine a good choice of rifle in a modern enviroment. I would put it in with pistol caliber carbines, and might consider it as a defensive gun only after significant testing. I consider .223 to be a less than perfect caliber.
 
FALnovice, I have 6 or 7 footlockers and several boxes of research material from the ordnance library and I am recovering from some cardiac issues so I may be able to dig that up for you in the next couple of months. I'll do what I can. Jim
 
It is my understanding that the stopping power of the FMJ .30 Carbine is equivilant to the stopping power of the FMJ 9 mm -- both are high velocity rounds that overpenetrate.

I've heard that, when hollowpoints or frangible ammunition is used instead of the inexpensive surplus FMJ, stopping power is equivilant to that of a .44 magnum.

The M1 carbine is a lightweight, rapid-firing, reliable weapon . . . except under arctic conditions. Many jams during Korea, probably due to the lubricating oil used at that time.
 
I don't care much for the role they were intended to fill with regards to their design. I've fired them and found them great plinkers. Fun to shoot, handy, accurate, cheap to feed and 'cool' looking. The pipsqueak cartridge I would not want to bet my life on in a combat environment. If one ever came along that was reasonably priced I might be tempted to jump aboard though.
 
falnovice said:
The carbine does tend to polarize people. I've spoken to vets who loved it, hated it, or hated it because it was one more thing to carry around/clean. For me the most difficult part is people keep comparing it to rifles, current or past. While it is a carbine it was not intended to replace a rifle......just a pistol.
Next time a make up Gel I'll do some FMJ tests with it, maybe a couple of side by side against a .45 FMJ. Clothed, bare, thick Clothing, and so forth.
I'll even pick up some modern stuff and take it for a spin.
I think the box of truth people did this at one point.
Click to expand...
So you make ballistic gel blocks? How cool is that! I would love to see some knife tests on ballistic gel.


(BTW did the CS video arrive?)
 
I'm having a hard time completely agreeing with the lack of stopping power myself. I know the M-1 Carbine I'd previously mentioned has killed more game here in Alaska than probably all of our rifles combined.

Compared to the 06's it fought along side I'm sure it did look pretty anemic, but in the over all realm of things....I'd still rather have the .30 carbine than a carbine in 9mm or .45 ACP. I guess being restricted to FMJ ball ammo, might make a different scenario? Heck, I'd love to have a 110 grain bullet comin' out of the muzzle of my Smith revolver at around 1900 FPS...

We all frequently hear or state how x cartridge has alot of stopping power an y cartridge is an under powered piece of garbage, or for whatever reason z cartridge is not suited to combat.

I think the best conclusion small town know little Mikey has drawn from this is that I should focus on hitting my target, and have a back up plan if my attacker doesn't realize they should have already crumpled over into a pile and quit trying to harm me, irregardless of whether I'm shooting a pellet rifle or a shotgun.

I've been thinking real long and hard about an M-1 carbine for my wife. she has disabling carpal tunnel and bursitis, and can not handle long guns like she once could. Seems to me that having one loaded with Cor-Bons would be a pretty good solution for her when I'm out of town. Have a few others rolling around in my head as well though...
 
I'd rather be hit with any nine millimeter in any loading or bullet design than with the M1 Carbine with soft points.

Almost all the bullet makers have 110 gr soft points as varmint rounds in .308 calibre. You get hit by one of those and they won't know where to start stitching you up.

munk
 
bigkahunasix,

No rush on my account. I'll be reloading and doing gel tests until late spring so anytime you dig it out let me know. (I still gotta buy a carbine:) )
Best of health to you and welcome.

fixer27,
I have to admit I am a latecomer to the knife world, my main interest is firearms. It was an article in a gun rag a few years ago that got me into knives.
I used to cut meat for a living and at one point when I took over a shop as the manager they had a lot of out dated stuff.....so being me I took a couple of cases of chuck rolls out and shot'em. Interesting, but messy and smelly.
Gel is a lot more controled and of course, reusable to a certain extent.
Also, I did recieve the CS video, though I am a little confused. It says it soemthing to the extent that these are the highlights of the 1hr and 10 min Proof video, and yet the whole thing is just the same ten minute highlight segment over and over and over again. Strange. I will get it off in the mail to you shortly.
Knife tests on gel might be interesting....I'll play with that one.

Runs With Scissors,
I too know of plenty of deer that were taken with the little carbine.
Maybe I should just slate a testing series as pure M1 carbine. FMJ, SP, Corbon and others.
 
Err, you can keep the the CS video, Merry Christmas!

A buddy of mine had a M-1 carbine, fun to shoot but longer magazines would not work in it. A 30 rounds magazine simply wouldn't function in it.

I did like the peep site though.
 
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