Group survival shelters.

misanthropist said:
That's an interesting comment to me, my experience is the opposite. I find people often want a place to go, but it takes (me) too long to set up a shelter, and if it is cold enough to need a shelter, then I would guess heat is my main concern at that point, even if not obviously pressing yet. If I need to get warmed up, I can sure make a fire faster than I can make any sort of shelter, especially for a group. In fact I figure fire to be step one in practically any survival situation, just on the grounds that cold seems to be the fastest thing you're likely to die from out in the bush.


Why do you figure shelter? I am not trying to argue here, just curious about your experiences since they have taken you to such a different conclusion.
Click to expand...

Also, consider the PMA (positive mental attitude) a hot fire will help to create for inexperienced, wet, and cold ex-canoeists. There is also the consideration of the light given off by the fire, because in this situation, you can bet the darkness is going to come on way, way too soon.

(Actually I had typed a whole lot more, until I realized I was just repeating what misanthropist had posted).

Doc
 
misanthropist said:
That's an interesting comment to me, my experience is the opposite. I find people often want a place to go, but it takes (me) too long to set up a shelter, and if it is cold enough to need a shelter, then I would guess heat is my main concern at that point, even if not obviously pressing yet. If I need to get warmed up, I can sure make a fire faster than I can make any sort of shelter, especially for a group. In fact I figure fire to be step one in practically any survival situation, just on the grounds that cold seems to be the fastest thing you're likely to die from out in the bush.


Why do you figure shelter? I am not trying to argue here, just curious about your experiences since they have taken you to such a different conclusion.
Click to expand...


if your surviving gang is really cold, ...don't forget you can just forgoe the shelter option in an emergency, strip them of their wet clothes and get them all "nut to butt" for heating through conduction from their bodies, while the more fit survivors go get wood for the first fire....

if you are in an area with a lot of foliage, just bury them in boughs and leaves as improvised insulation.

tell the nekkid guys what goes to the forest, stays in the forest ...(wink!)....

vec
 
vector001 said:
if your surviving gang is really cold, ...don't forget you can just forgoe the shelter option in an emergency, strip them of their wet clothes and get them all "nut to butt" for heating through conduction from their bodies, while the more fit survivors go get wood for the first fire....

if you are in an area with a lot of foliage, just bury them in boughs and leaves as improvised insulation.

tell the nekkid guys what goes to the forest, stays in the forest ...(wink!)....

vec
Click to expand...

I hope that's not what you mean by :
"Making good old tools new and better." :(

Doc
 
i too have had a similar experience as you. my buddies jake, steve and mark hadn't really been outdoors alot but after i took them hiking on the chief (stamus chief in squamish, bc) they were hooked.

we were out on a hike following an old dirt logging road west of port alberni. there were 4 of us back packin it and wouldnt ya know it the only person who brought a knife was me.

although my buddies had some other essentials. like lighters, matches, and a pot they didnt have a single knife between the 3 of them.

having been hiking alot more then them (i was kinda acting as the guide for the trip :)) i took action.

i took out my fiskars hatchet, and passed it to jake and mark and told him to go with my other buddy to gather as much firewood as they could carry. i showed them what kinda wood to look for and how to safely gather it before leaving (didnt want to have to treat an injured friend cause that'd be bringing the rest of the team down)

me and my buddy steve got a shelter put together in all of 5 minutes. it was a very large lean-to which was facing a stretched out fire pit we made (that way we can have a long log fire and the residual heat would reflect making us warm and dry.)
we rolled some logs under the lean too and covered them with spruce boughs to not only give us a dry seat off the ground but to keep our butts off the cold wet dirt.

i'd say the most helpful thing on that trip was the zip-ties (zap straps) which i had packed into my psk. i quickly lashed the poles onto the frame and we were able to cover the lean-to with spruce boughs and other debris which made the thing fairly water tight.

once they got back we got a fire going pretty darn quick. after splitting a few logs my buddy steve decided he'd give it a go and before i knew it we had a size-able stack of kindling next to a pile of fire wood. i pulled out my knife and made some nice shavings to help the fire catch quickly.

i normally carry a few trioxane tabs for cooking and combined the two to get an instant blaze going. (those trioxane tabs are super fire starters).

after having dried ourselves off i took out my canteen filled the pot and put on a brew.

when we finally got back after 3 days of walking the first thing my buddies did was go and pick up a knife and a hatchet for themselves. (guess they learned their lesson)

__________________________________________________________________________

so if your buddies havent learnt from your experience i'd say give em a smack on the side of the head :D

from my experience a large lean-to is fairly quick to setup with the proper materials in you psk. for a group of 4 we found two trees space about 2 meters apart and started working on it. it was fairly cozy but did the job.

if you are soaked to the bone, i'd suggest taking the clothes off and trying to squeeze as much water out of them as possible... not sure if thats a big help but i've done it a few times when i got soaked and atleast it helps remove some of the weight which the water generates on your clothes.

btw i dont think your screwed. atleast you have the brain to bring your psk and a knife :D

cheers mate, hope you dont have one of those life and death situations again.
 
If you are sopping wet and have lost all your gear or spare clothes the first order of business is to get dry. Your clothes are your first line of shelter. Don't build a shelter first unless its raining or very windy, it won't solve the problem. If your clothes are wet as soon as you are done with the shelter and stop activity you will get cold very quickly.

A drying fire needs a good deal of flame, don't build it to make a base of coals, use wood that gives you a good flame. The flames should be tall enough to dry your shirt when you are standing so stack the wood like a teepee not a log cabin. The more wet people the taller the fire but for one or two a fire that reaches up just above the knees will work. For four or five make it a bit higher. That way everyone can stand up wind far enough away and still get dry. Don't hold clothes over a fire as they can light up real fast that way.

If you have a heavy coat or outer layer turn it inside out to dry the inside first. That way you can put it back on once your shirt is dry and dry the outside by just hanging around the fire. If it is really, really cold then just build the fire big enough that you can stand there in your shirt and pants.

Strip off the outer layer of clothes and hold them in front of your legs, turning them to dry evenly. If you can then hang them near enough to the fire so you can see steam rising. Keep a close eye on your clothes to keep from burning/melting them, boots especially. Rubber outer soles can melt before the feet register that the boots are even warm. Take off your socks and prop them on sticks and wear your boots without socks while drying the rest of your clothes.

Warm rocks can be used to dry the insides of boots but they should not be too hot to pick up with your hands, test them first. If you can't hold them for a little while in your hands then don't drop them in your boot yet. Pants dry without much special treatment just from proximity to the fire. Squat down in front of the fire to dry the crotch.

If it is raining then build or find a dry place before attempting a fire to dry your clothes or you will just fight a loosing battle. Hot rocks can be rolled into a shelter to give off heat for a while. A canteen filled with hot water is really nice too, especially for the feet.

It has been my experience that clothes left to dry in an unheated shelter don't dry out. Taking an hour to get everything thouroughly dry with a fire is well worth the time and effort. Mac
 
DOC-CANADA said:
I hope that's not what you mean by :
"Making good old tools new and better." :(

Doc
Click to expand...

....doh...!

....hey now!, Herr Doctor...;

first guy to pop a boner gets ett... after he is cooked well-done, of course... (alive)....

....har...!

vec
 
Stunning to hear of folks going into the woods with no knife.

DOC-CANADA said:
armloads of squaw wood
Click to expand...

That's an expression I was taught as a kid. Seems to have disappeared in our more "PC" age. There was a poem we had to memorize that began, "First you get some squaw wood, dead but from a tree . . . ."
 
Thomas Linton said:
Stunning to hear of folks going into the woods with no knife.



That's an expression I was taught as a kid. Seems to have disappeared in our more "PC" age. There was a poem we had to memorize that began, "First you get some squaw wood, dead but from a tree . . . ."
Click to expand...

Awhile back, I think it was on Paleo Planet, a First Nations woman defended the use of the word squaw and said it had legitimate use. If you're interested, I think I saved it on my hard drive.

As far as being PC, it just depends who you talk to. One time I was demonstrating some primitive skills at a local botanical garden, and one of the people I was teaching how to make cordage was a Mi'kimaq lady. She said that the word 'Indian' was inappropriate. I then asked her about AIM. (the American Indian Movement), she responded that, regardless, she didn't like it.

An acquaintance of mine is a member of Six Nations (ironically, I taught him to make fire by friction - hand drill) says he doesn't care what anybody calls him as long as there's no malicious intent (a wise position in my opinion) although he didn't like the term First Nations. And on and on it goes.

The reason the topic came up was I asked what was the proper way to refer to their people. Others have said (hope I don't screw this up) they like to be called Anishanawbe (??) or something like that and it means the people. I know there are some First Nations/Native/Indigenous/................ people on this forum. Perhaps they can chime in. For me, I usually use First Nations, because I believe it is technically correct, but like Wolf said, 'as long as the intent is good' and mine is.

Doc
 
misanthropist said:
That's an interesting comment to me, my experience is the opposite.
Click to expand...

I didn't see anything concerning local weather conditions in the origional question- maybe I missed it.

If it is cold, yes, fire in this case in important. Cold in this case being 50s, or 60s with a decent wind. I won't argue that case, absolutely, fire. But I also see people building these great big blazing bonfires that would warm a dozen people for three or four yahoos. It isn't efficent. Build the smallest fire you need to stay warm, saves time and energy. A fire can be smaller if you have a shelter, even if it is a reflector behind you, something under you, and something to keep the wind and rain off.

But if it is sunny and in the 70s, you really don't need a fire. Get your butt out of the water and if you feel chill, get the wet stuff off you. Heck, when it is in the 90s and humid, I'm likely to hop in a river for a few seconds, get out, put my socks and boots back on, shoulder my pack, and keep going. When it is that warm, you only need a fire to boil water, cook food, signal and to keep the boogie man away. But I always want something over me at night, partially for the night's cooling, but mainly to keep the dew off.

I thought that my statements concerning if it is hot, you want shelter first,, vs if it is cold, you want fire first, required no further explanation. Too many people build a fire and stop there. You can become hypothermic in freezing rain even if you are so close to a fire your hair is starting to smell funny. It does happen, and it will happen again, I've seen it several times at the fire pits on a trail I hike regularly.
 
Okay, I guess I just misunderstood you!

Although in my experience, you can stay pretty comfortable in miserable conditions with just a fire...but you have to turn around constantly!

I do think, though, that if you are wet, and in a survival situation, step one is probably "get dry."

I completely agree that most people don't seem to know much about what a good fire ought to be, and build either a) nothing because they have no idea what they are doing or b) something ten times bigger than what they need.

When it's hot, I don't bother with shelter...but I am lazy and like minimal shelter anyway!
 
misanthropist said:
Okay, I guess I just misunderstood you!

Although in my experience, you can stay pretty comfortable in miserable conditions with just a fire...but you have to turn around constantly!

...
Click to expand...

this is why folks make fire reflectors ...which leads to a better form of shelter later....

i doubt you would get hypothermia with a small fire and a proper reflector in the worst conditions ...and i have been in the worst conditions, brethren...

....as many of you have....

vec
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top