Guarantee/Warranty on knives

Sorry it took so long to get back.
An RMA number is a tracking number, issued by the manufacturer, used to track returned merchandise. After the number is issued, the customer usually writes this number in plain view on the box of the returned item. Then the manufacture calls the shipping company to pick the package up at your house and you fill out a shipping label per the manufacturs request. When done properly, the package is picked up and delivered to the manufacturer. The manufacture sees the RMA number, checks it, and excepts the package. Thus the person who got the bum product does not have to pay for the shipping!
Folks, this is done all the time in other industries.
If this were done as a practice in this industry possibly there would be more attention to whats sent out the door!


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>)-RadarMan-(<


 
Regarding the words "lifetime warranty".

This can mean...
a) the life of the purchaser/owner.
b) the life of the manufacturer.
c) the life of the knife.

"a" seems logical.

"b" goes without saying. If a company or one-person knifemaker goes out of business or dies, there's no way to make good on the guarantee, regardless of fine print or good intentions.

"c" is silly. If a knife breaks, its life is effectively over. The warranty might as well say, "...we will repair or replace the product at our option provided there is nothing seriously wrong with it." I suppose one would have to determine what constitutes the "life" of an inanimate object. (As if philosophers and theologians didn't have enough to argue about.) Have you ever gone to an all-you-can-eat restaurant, and eaten a big pile of food, and you ask for more, and the waiter refuses, and you say, "hey, I thought it was all-you-can-eat," and the waiter replies, "That IS all you can eat."?

David Rock
 
Two points:
1 - As a distributor for a European manufacturer who offers a printed 5 year warranty on manufacturing and workmanship, on a very well made product, I understand that it is illegal in Europe to offer a "lifetime" warranty. The time-frame must be seen to be "realistic" and "reasonable". ie what good is a lifetime warranty from a company which is no longer in business?

So far as local policy for warranties, we, the distributor, can make a judgement and either give a replacement or send the knife back to the manufacturer for them to either repair or replace. In either case the knife goes to the manufacturer so that they can not only decide whether to replace/repair but so determine the reason for the failure and hopefully improve the product.

2 - I agree with Sid's point about the customer's responsibility. We always want the other guy to be responsible and to do the right thing but tend to be reluctant to expect it from ourselves.

For what it's worth.

Tom
 
Tom - It is my understanding that "lifetime" warrantees are not legal in the US either. A specified and realistic time is required. Although here in the land of free speech. Those selling product still make unrealistic claims. That's why they are often "limited warrantees". That is what makes this question so interesting.
sal
 

Didn't Buck have "Lifetime Guarantee" on the top of thier ads for many years? I never saw the actual wording, was it limited in the fine print?
As for our product, we believe it is built tough enough to last for a "Lifetime" of use so we stand behind it with a lifetime guarantee. After what Cliff Stamp did in the testing we are quite confident that is true.

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P.J.
YES,it is sharp, just keep your fingers out of the way!
www.silverstar.com/turnermfg


 
Sal -- I agree with Dannyc. When I'm in Manila I make it a point to visit Hahn-Manila, your Philippine distributor, to ogle at the Spydies displayed.

I'm very glad to know that you have empowered your distributors to replace products bought by customers as they see fit. I suggest placing in each Spydie box shipped to foreign distributors a note stating such.

However, a problem comes in when a sold knife does not warrant replacement but only repair. Mailing the knife to your Golden factory is not only expensive but risky as well, even if insured.

I like the way some gun manufacturers structure their repair policy practice. Smith & Wesson's Philippine distributor is also their Service Warranty Center in our country. They have the skilled Filipino gunsmiths (trained in the US) and gun parts to service S&W guns sold here.

Of course, your low volume (?) sales here might not justify putting up a fulltime service center in the Philippines. But maybe one service center per region/continent (Asia, Europe, etc.) might be cost-effective?

Or maybe you can follow what Taurus does. When a part of my Taurus revolver broke, instead of sending it back to Brazil or US (which is not only very expensive but illegal, too!) I sent it to their distributor in Manila. Turned out that Taurus invites and trains in the US or Brazil the in-house gunsmiths of their distributors and selected dealers worldwide.

Maybe Spyderco and other manufacturers can do the same?
 
Sal
Thanks for the enlightenment. This then begs the question "What good is a 'lifetime' warranty anyway". Especially in a land "build on laws".

Maybe a realistic warranty that is related to the MANUFACTURER'S intended use of the product would be both more meaningful and more responsible. It just might help buyers to understand the differences in the products they're buying.

As was stated earlier in this thread, the buying public needs some way of telling the differences in the knives they are buying. Maybe this is one way that they can be helped.

In the same vein, if buyers complained/reported when they were offered lifetime and other illegal and unrealistic warranties then maybe the manufacturers would offer more realistic ones which actually meant something. Reference Cliff Stamp's MD thread.

Buyers have the power to change things, if they choose to use it. That is really what 'free speech' is for.

PJ has opened a very interesting thread which, if we use it properly, could just set the stage for some real and meaningful action . Let's accept only realistic warranties, based on the MANUFACTURER's intended use of the product and let's accept responsibility for our own actions. Together we can make it work.

Congratulations PJ.

Tom

I was going to aplologise for promoting a revolution, but decided not to. I think we should.
 
Tom:
Would a warranty that reads "This knife is warrantied for the lifetime of the original purchaser or 25 years, whichever is greater" be a realistic statement if accompanied by an intended use statement? "Intended uses of this knife are cutting, chopping bone and wood, and include emergency situations which may vary according to the need."

How do you write"My word is my bond"
We place our name on the Uluchet, there is nothing more valuable to me than my name, how do I write this in a warranty?

This thread will accomplish a great deal of good for both the mfg. and ELU's, thanks for the input.

------------------
P.J.
YES,it is sharp, just keep your fingers out of the way!
www.silverstar.com/turnermfg




[This message has been edited by P.J. (edited 01 June 1999).]
 
Some years ago (before the joys of buying knives over the web were discovered) I bought a small model Spyderco Bob Terzuola from a dealer over here in the UK.

As the clip was switchable for tip or down carry I swapped it around but did not like it so swapped back.

In doing so I stripped the threads at both ends of the knife ( the screws only threaded into to the G10 not the liner)

Much agrivation then occured between myself, the dealer, the distributor in the UK and, so they distie said, Spyderco.

The upshot was that I was left with a clipless knife that hung about in a draw for a couple of years.

Then last year I discovered Spyderco's online presence and emailed them. They said send it over and it came back a couple of months later in as new condidtion, sharpened as well to boot.

From what I now know about Spyderco's customer service I dont think that the UK distie ever contacted them at all.

I have had to send back knives and tools to several manufacturers in the US but I guess that is one of the prices to be payed for buying over the web (mind you if I only bought stuff in this country I would not have many knives at all as they are so expensive over here)



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Harvey Wareham

Live Long & Prosper, so you can buy more knives :)


 
Dannyc~
You bring up some great points. I would love to have some ideas on educating the overseas dealers to Spyderco's excellent customer service, so they in turn could explain our virtues to their customers. I think Spyderco's warranty is pretty self explanatory, but maybe not, or maybe they haven't seen it? I find that extremely hard to believe. Any ideas?

Also, I think warranties, guarantees and the like are simply "jumping off" points for manufacturers, dealers, etc. People soon learn by word of mouth or otherwise how strict or how liberal so-and-so's return policy is, regardless of what is stated in so-and-so's black and white warranty. Most companies are more liberal than their warranty states, haven't you found? Yet they must have the boundaries in writing to cover the gray areas...also, I can attest that warranties/return policies are more flexible when one presents the bent/broken/twisted/abused items with an attitude of professionalism, expecting nothing. How nice it is to surprise a customer who presents his problem with an attitude of "remorse" ("I can't believe I did this, and I'm sure there's nothing you can do") with a solution that makes everyone happy. Sometimes how far the maker colors outside the lines of his warranty has much to do with the manner that the problem is presented. Expect much....receive little, sometimes....agreed?
Danelle

[This message has been edited by djo62 (edited 01 June 1999).]
 
Just a note from Gurkha House: our guarantee is no-questions. I personally guarantee each knife that leaves my hands. Although I have a few select retailers(i.e. Knife Outlet, Peter Frye, Sid Post), if you should happen to buy one from them and it breaks, send it back to them (or me) and you'll get a new one. In other words, my unconditional guarantee applies to every Gurkha House Khukuri - not just the ones I sell directly. Incidentally, what do I guarantee on my knives? Factory defects, user defects, unhappiness - anything except RUST (high carbon steel will rust if not treated with protectant, and I can't change physics). I even guarantee handles. I know that means I'll get a couple of knives back eventually, but I don't care. I also guarantee that your knife will work when you need it to. If you do find yourself hacking your way out of a car after you've driven it off a bridge - the blade may suffer a bit like they do in Cliff's tests - but it will still function. Of course, if you use your Gurkha House Khukuri to save your life and it chips or the handle cracks, I consider that money well spent by you and by me.

And a note on abuse: Certainly, what Cliff Stamp does in his great tests may be considered "abuse" to the knives. Of course, when I send a knife to Cliff, I expect and want him to "find the limits" of my product. Do I guarantee "abuse"? Yes - and here's why. I believe that on the whole, quality people buy quality knives. Few people - when they get my khukuris - are going to say "Well, let's screw with Craig, abuse his product, and then send it back for a replacement." If somebody cuts steel pipes with my khukuri, well, then they'll get a new knife and I'm out a few bucks. If they do it again, then I might start to wonder.

Since Cliff has found the limits of my knives (Service Number One, and, soon, the Bhojpure), nobody else really has to undertake that mission. They know that if they have to ever use their khukuri to save their life, they can do this and the knife won't snap in two. Of course, when you're trying to save your life, do you really care if the manufacturer will send you a new one after you've survived? No. My guarantee is basically a permission slip to go ahead and really use my knives.
 
Just a note from Gurkha House: our guarantee is no-questions. I personally guarantee each knife that leaves my hands. Although I have a few select retailers(i.e. Knife Outlet, Peter Frye, Sid Post), if you should happen to buy one from them and it breaks, send it back to them (or me) and you'll get a new one. In other words, my unconditional guarantee applies to every Gurkha House Khukuri - not just the ones I sell directly. Incidentally, what do I guarantee on my knives? Factory defects, user defects, unhappiness - anything except RUST (high carbon steel will rust if not treated with protectant, and I can't change physics). I even guarantee handles. I know that means I'll get a couple of knives back eventually, but I don't care. I also guarantee that your knife will work when you need it to. If you do find yourself hacking your way out of a car after you've driven it off a bridge - the blade may suffer a bit like they do in Cliff's tests - but it will still function. Of course, if you use your Gurkha House Khukuri to save your life and it chips or the handle cracks, I consider that money well spent by you and by me.

And a note on abuse: Certainly, what Cliff Stamp does in his great tests may be considered "abuse" to the knives. Of course, when I send a knife to Cliff, I expect and want him to "find the limits" of my product. Do I guarantee "abuse"? Yes - and here's why. I believe that on the whole, quality people buy quality knives. Few people - when they get my khukuris - are going to say "Well, let's screw with Craig, abuse his product, and then send it back for a replacement." If somebody cuts steel pipes with my khukuri, well, then they'll get a new knife and I'm out a few bucks. If they do it again, then I might start to wonder.

Since Cliff has found the limits of my knives (Service Number One, and, soon, the Bhojpure), nobody else really has to undertake that mission. They know that if they have to ever use their khukuri to save their life, they can do this and the knife won't snap in two. Of course, when you're trying to save your life, do you really care if the manufacturer will send you a new one after you've survived? No. My guarantee is basically a permission slip to go ahead and really use my knives.

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Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
PJ, I think this is a great topic.

Seems to me, as the discussion of MDK over on the Other Place seems to indicate, though, that the real issue is integrity, and not wording. Many manufacturers who have a very limited warranty -- blame the lawyers -- will waive the fine print and just replace or repair the product in order to do right by the customer.

Which is as it should be.

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-----------------------
http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
 
Here is a very simple warrenty - the knife should do what you say it can do. That is what the spirit of the agreement should be.

How to legally phrase this - good luck - ask two lawyers and you will get two different answers and another will say that both are wrong.


-Cliff
 
Gentlemen:
Is this an acceptable adaptation of lifetime guarantee?

"This knife is guaranteed unconditionally, if it should fail for any reason we will repair or replace it."

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P.J.
YES,it is sharp, just keep your fingers out of the way!
www.silverstar.com/turnermfg




[This message has been edited by P.J. (edited 01 June 1999).]
 
Danelle brings up a very good point. The manner in which something is approached can be a significant factor in getting it resolved to your satisfaction. This doesn't always work but, most of the time it does.

Most everybody has seen this one time or another. The classics I have generally seen is where somebody walks up to a the gun show table demanding something. Usually a heated shouting match continues for a time and both parties lose. The person making the demand generally will not get what they want and the dealer is distressed that a customer would approach them in such a manner and make the allegations in such confrontational way without basis, after all neither side at this point will be scratching the surface to find out what the root cause of the failure is since things have escalated to a new level beyond the problem at hand that started it all. Both parties lose!

I have also seen the reverse where a customer walks up to a table and says something like: "I bought this from you at the last show. After I used it awhile it developed this problem/broke/rusted .... Is there anything you can do to help me? Do you have the number of their customer service department or a contact in their service department for me to get this resolved?" In transactions like this, I have seen the dealer reach into his display case and apologize for not inspecting things closer, hand the guy a new widget and eat the shipping back for repairs himself. Both parties win! If you have a problem, try to approach things with a calm rational polite demeaner and give the other side a chance to respond. Manufacturers and dealers all want the customer to be happy with their purchase and will generally go beyond the norm to keep that customer happy. A customer for life is much more valuable then the small sum of money involved over most problems. After all, how many of have purchased a knife based on good word of mouth or avoided one because of a bad experience for someone else? Nowing what you want to resolve the problem, approaching it a pleasant manner and, giving the other side a chance to respond works to the satisfaction of most parties.

I will note though, sometimes certain companies or people just will not treat you right. Ask around before you make the purchase. If you are unfortunate enough to make a purchase that fails and the dealer/manufacturer will not help you, there is rarely a cost effective solution to remedy the situation, expect to take the financial loss and consider it tuition at the School of Hard Knocks. This may not be the way it should be but, sometimes it is the way it actually is.

Sid
 
I agree with PJ, who said it perfectly, and Sid, who expounded on PJs poetic simplicity. It's ultimately the integrity of the persons involved that dictate the "pleasantness" of a financial transaction. I've fought like a pihranna to get some companies to honor what I thought was a guarantee. Inbetween my reading of the guarantee and their opinion about what some terms mean lies the chasm accross which only integrity can offer safe passage.



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Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
Craig:

I'm curious to know what you do if a person chops steel pipe with the second kukri, and you "start to wonder", but you replace the knife anyway, and then he chops pipe with the third one, and now your pretty sure the guy is taking unfair advantage, but just to be sure you send him (what are we up to now?) a fourth one...

At what point do you say, "I'm sorry sir," and quit giving him replacements? If your product is inexpensive and/or you sell a lot of knives at a considerable profit, I suppose you can keep sending the abusive customer free knives until one or the other of you dies, and the profit you make on all of the honest, intelligent customers will keep you in the black. I guess the money you're losing on all the replacement knives may be regarded simply as the price you pay to be able to advertise your knives as "unconditionally guaranteed". I suppose it's worth it from your standpoint--your guarantee sells knives and generates more profit than you lose on account of the occasional frivolous claim. It's kind of like an insurance company: they are gambling that there will always be enough healthy people to pay for the few who get sick. Heaven help them if everyone were to make a claim at the same time.

So Craig, just out of curiosity, how many knives can you afford to send to a repeat abuser before you go out of business? Or is this so unlikely that it's simply not worth worrying about? If I were a custom knife maker I'd be worried, because I wouldn't be able to produce knives fast enough to stay ahead of someone who broke one every day because he'd rather use it than a hacksaw to cut pipe.

David Rock

David Rock
 
David:
If someone were breaking knives in an attempt to "break the shop" a refund of the purchase price might be your only option, but as you point out, how many people would purposely damage knife after knife.

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P.J.
YES,it is sharp, just keep your fingers out of the way!
www.silverstar.com/turnermfg


 
Hi Danelle!

=============================================
You bring up some great points. I would love to have some ideas on educating the overseas dealers to
Spyderco's excellent customer service, so they in turn could explain our virtues to their customers. I think
Spyderco's warranty is pretty self explanatory, but maybe not, or maybe they haven't seen it? I find that
extremely hard to believe. Any ideas?
=============================================

Yes, hard to believe, but true. Unfortunately, Spyderco may have a clear-cut warranty policy in black and white, but the problem is that some distributors do not honor them. I'm talking about the ones over here in our country. People would rather just sell and sell, earn a couple of bucks, then forget the whole thing until someone comes in, asks for help on the warranty, and be shoo'd off by telling them that our country isn't covered by the warranty, etc..

I guess the problem is with the dealer/distributor not honoring the warranty coverage. They'd rather give us a hogwash story to prevent us from clamoring for warranty. Duh!
frown.gif


Dan
 
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