Guarantee/Warranty on knives

If a dealer/manufacturer thinks that somebody is deliberately -- or, repeatedly stupidly -- damaging his knife justto stick it to the dealer, the obvious thing to do is return the money and take back the knife. (And then let it be known that he did just that. Free ad copy: "You probably wouldn't do this to one of my knives, but I want you to know how my, well, pride in my work and my guaranty compels me to handle it when somebody does...")

No big deal.

Or, alternately, the dealer can -- entirely reasonably -- come up with a less boastful guarantee than PJ does. (And PJ, I mean "boastful" entirely in a positive sense.) Not everybody can afford to take the positon of, hey, I'd rather be out of pocket than have somebody -- for any reason -- have a knife of mine that they're unhappy with.

My criticism of Mad Dog Knives, over on the Other Place (until the Powers That Be there apparently decided that revoking my posting privileges was the way to go -- now, I'm critical of MDK and CF for additional reasons, too), wasn't that he failed to live up to a general warranty, but that he's failing to live up to a very proud and boastful one.

If you can't walk the walk, you shouldn't talk the talk.

(Note, by the way, how rarely a craftsman like, say RJ Martin has to honor his guarantee. Once a year shouldn't be a big deal -- less than once a decade, well, that's a low price to pay to earn those boasting rights.)


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http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
 
I agree that the warranty is just the starting point. The attitudes of both parties is where both get the opportunity to shine. When each treats the other with respect and accepts, maybe more than their share, of responsibility then there is a real chance that both will come qaway winning.

PJ. Your word is your bond, but stating it in a warranty will not make it so. What you do will. Your reputation will follow your actions, not your written warranty. I accept your word and I know that you really stand behind it but if every manufacturer makes such a claim but not all of them back it up with action then we have what we have now - unwarranted [:)] claims and a confused buying public.

If the purpose of this thread is to help develop a good written warranty then we need to understand what the manufacterer and the buyer thinks or expects the warranty to mean as a minimum. The manufacturer, distributor, dealer is free to expand on it - but not to limit it.

Maybe this is what is not clear, either to buyers or to manufacturers. Since every knife CAN be damaged, even the most demanding buyer and certainly every manufacturer knows this, the question becomes "what portion of the damage is the manufacturer prepared to accept". PJ's approach is that he will accept all responsibility for the failure of his product no matter what caused it. His warranty states this very clearly. The problem arises when others do not and what we do or rather, can do about it? In other words, how enforceable is a written warranty?

Any lawyers out there?

Tom


 
Unless a person has lots of extra money and time on his hands, it won't be worth his trouble to file suit against a manufacturer for failing to honor a warranty. I guess there is small claims court, or you can file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, but really the only practical recourse to the unhappy customer is to spread the word (post nasty stuff in the "Good, Bad, and Ugly" forum
smile.gif
). A boycott and/or smear campaign may not have any noticeable effect on the company's fortunes, but it may be worth doing as a matter of principle.

As a customer, the guarantee I would like to see might resemble the following (taken from a General Mills cereal box):

"We're committed to quality. In fact we unconditionally guarantee it. If you are not satisfied with the quality of this product, a prompt refund or adjustment of equal value will be made."

Notice that this guarantee leaves a lot of leeway to the customer to decide what constitutes poor quality. The sad reality is that some people have unreasonable expectations.

Should the customer be allowed a refund simply because he didn't like the knife for whatever subjective reason? Most dealers/manufacturers will allow a return, provided that the product has not been used or modified in a way that would make it impossible to sell it to someone else. Otherwise the manufacturer must either eat the loss or add fine print to the warranty. Actually, I don't mind seeing a little bit of fine print, as the exclusions are usually quite reasonable.

How much is it worth to have a one-sentence guarantee?

David Rock

[This message has been edited by David Rock (edited 01 June 1999).]
 
David: good questions. To date, I've had only one knife come back to me (the handle broke) and the customer upgraded to a Bhojpure. About the 4-knife pipe cutting customers who like to screw around? I've never met one. Ultimately, I have to judge each case. I think I'm a pretty good judge of character. If somebody is obviously in to destroying knives for kicks, I think I'll figure it out, and then do what somebody said earlier in the thread: issue them a refund and wish them a happy life.
 
David: good questions. To date, I've had only one knife come back to me (the handle broke) and the customer upgraded to a Bhojpure. About the 4-knife pipe cutting customers who like to screw around? I've never met one. Ultimately, I have to judge each case. I think I'm a pretty good judge of character. If somebody is obviously in to destroying knives for kicks, I think I'll figure it out, and then do what somebody said earlier in the thread: issue them a refund and wish them a happy life.

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Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
David:

However depressed you statemnent makes me I believe it is probably true. We don't excercise our rights as consumers so we get only what we will not complain about. Your statemnet implies that we have little other choice and that that is ineffectual. Depressing!

Without getting off topic, cereal boxes are a good example of the use of warranties as advertising while at the same time fighting as hard as possible to keep the list of ingredients as uninformative as possible.

I just want it to be clear and meaningful.

Tom
 

posted 06-01-99 10:43 AM ET (US)

Cliff wrote:

" Here is a very simple warrenty - the knife should do what you say it can do. That is what the spirit of the agreement should be.

How to legally phrase this - good luck - ask two lawyers and you will get two different answers and another will say that both are wrong."


I think this is the central issue for the whole MD TUSK thing. If you design, make and sell a knife as the Sniper's Companion - as the TUSK is sold - then it is reasonable to expect the knife to withstand the heavy chopping, hammering and cutting duties that a sniper might put the knife to in clearing a field of fire or opening a firing slit in a building, etc. And let's not forget this knife sells for $900. I know all you other guys are rich, but $900 is a lot to pay for an 01 tool steel knife in a Kydex sheath. At least when it would be my money.

I think Cliff's testing was a fair simulation of the type of certaining very hard use a sniper might put the knife to in the field.

The first knife broke because it was defective. Not because it was abused. And it was replaced. Fine.

The second knife simply failed. That doesn't mean another MD TUSK wouldn't have passed, but it means the one Cliff tested didn't. It doesn't mean other MD's haven't passed tough testing either. They have. I think for $900 the knife should either be repaired, replaced of the money refunded. If not by MD then by the dealer from which Cliff purchased the knife. He bought the knife from an established MD dealer, not at the flea market. As it stands now Cliff has no money and no knife. That must suck.

If Cliff had taken a torch to the TUSK, then I'd say the destruction was wanton. If he'd clamped the knife in a vise and use a pipe to leverage the handle, I'd say that was unfair and unrealistic use. But he didn't. If Cliff had put a filet type knife sold for fishing to the type of test to which he put the TUSK I'd say that was abuse because a filet knife isn't sold as a tool for snipers and couldn't be expected to take heavy chopping and hammering.

I own 2 MD knives and have a lot of respect for Mr. McClung's products. And frankly if I hadn't read this TUSK-story myself I'd never have believed MD wouldn't have immediately replaced the knife and insisted that Cliff repeat the testing.

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www.wilkins-knives.com


 
Cliff Stamp wrote:
"Here is a very simple warrenty - the knife should do what you say it can do. That is what the spirit of the agreement should be.

"How to legally phrase this - good luck - ask two lawyers and you will get two different answers and another will say that both are wrong."

I want to expand on that.... The way I see it, if a reasonable person (I consider myself more or less reasonable but that's debatable and I'm prepared to debate it) reading the advertising for a product would conclude the product is suitable for a certain purpose, and it turns out it isn't, the customer is entitled to a refund. Regardless of what the written warranty says. That's the law in many parts of the world -- in the US it's called "the implied warranty of fitness for the intended purpose." In most jurisdictions that implied warranty cannot be annulled or limited by anything the manufacturer says. The classic example is if you buy a can-opener, even though it's clearly labeled "no refunds on sale items" or "not guaranteed" -- or anything, any disclaimer at all -- even though it isn't labeled "can-opener" and the customer is left to guess what it's for -- if it won't open cans you're entitled to a refund.

I am not a lawyer etc.

Whatever the law is in your jurisdiction I think that's an ethical minimum, and I think any ambiguity in the advertising should be interpreted in the favor of the customer. The manufacturers and vendors write the ads; if the ads imply a product can do something that's no accident.

When I see an ad with a picture of a knife doing something spectacular and I see some fine print at the bottom that says using the knife as shown in the ad voids the warranty, that company will never get my business whether I need my knife to be that tough or not. That kind of advertising might be legal but you'll never sell anything to me that way.

I consider limiting a warranty to the original owner a sleazy practice. There's no justification for it; they only do it because they can.

I consider limiting a warranty to defects in materials and workmanship unacceptable. (The law in many jurisdictions including mine says that limitation is unenforceable, but just that the manufacturer tried is enough to put me off.) If a knife breaks when you try to use it for the purposes it's advertised for and the maker says, "There's no defect in materials or workmanship; the knife just wasn't designed to be tough enough to do what it's advertised to do so you're not covered; have a nice day...." -- I have a better idea: I'll say, "I'm not going to buy your knife because I don't have any more faith in it than you do," in the first place, and I'll tell him, "Have a nice day...."

Every knife will wear out eventually but if it wears out faster than a reasonable person would expect -- if it's so soft it has to be sharpened after every other cut and it gets sharpened down to a sliver in no time at all, or if the joint of a folder wears out excessively fast, that ought to be covered.

The "reasonable person" standard is a common element in the law -- it may sound a little slippery and sometimes it is, but most of the time there's no problem at all interpreting that -- if the judge and the jury all agree when they read the ad that it implies the knife can chop wood ... what's the problem?

-Cougar Allen :{)


[This message has been edited by Cougar Allen (edited 02 June 1999).]
 
Kevin wrote :

If Cliff had put a filet type knife sold for fishing to the type of test to which he put the TUSK I'd say that was abuse because a filet knife isn't sold as a tool for snipers and couldn't be expected to take heavy chopping and hammering.
Click to expand...

The amusing thing is that I recently had Phil Wilson make me a knife similar to what you describe in the above from CPM-10V. I asked him if he would want a signed copy of the review I was planning to write and he said sure. As an example of what I intended to do I sent him a review of one of my heavier knives - I think it was the 20" 4+ lbs AK. My only comment was something like "tests will be scaled as per intended use." He had no problems.

I don't even remember if I even asked him what his warrenty was. I have no concerns about this in the slightest because of the conversations we have had and my opinion of him as a result. Bottom line is that no matter how the warrenty is stated it all comes down to the man backing it. If he wants to legal out then you are basically in a very bad position. Are you willing to spend the time and money in court to go after a few hundred dollars?

Look at how P. J., Craig, Tom, and Bill responded to what I wrote about their products. My reviews are rarely totally positive as I have never yet held a knife that I could not see room for improvement. None of them had problems with me looking for ways to improve the design or any discussions in this regard, and all would openly discuss performance limits before, during and after testing.

-Cliff
 
There's a reason for that, Cliff: those folks' pride is engaged in the quality of their products, not in boasting of the quality of their products.

That said, I suspect that Mad Dog Knives generally makes quite a good product and generally stands behind it under most circumstances. What I think happened in the case of the TUSK is that not only the execution but the design is flawed, and Mr. Dog appears to be too much in love with his own theories to openly reconsider them in the light of evidence -- while knowing, or at least suspecting, that he's pushed O1 past the limits of the task (or TUSK) at hand.

But the general thrust of the discussion here is, it seems to me, spot on: the question is really what you do, not what you promise to do, as long as you do at least what you promise. Much better to have a guarantee that says, "this knife may be useful to some people under some circumstances, but it could easily break and you're on your own if it does" and then that it up with total quality support rather than the other way around.
 
For those interested here's the Himalayan Imports guarantee verbatim. I guess by life I mean yours or mine.

Uncle Bill

Congratulations! You have just purchased a world class knife -- The HIMALAYAN IMPORTS KHUKURI -- handforged and completely handcrafted in Nepal. This khukuri represents the best effort coming out of Nepal today and the knife is guaranteed for life. If your khukuri should fail you in any way at any time simply contact HIMALAYAN IMPORTS for repair or replacement. In 11 years we have not had a single blade returned due to failure.
 
Bill Martino:

As a happy owner of one of your fine khukuries, I'm sure glad you're a young man who doesn't smoke or drink.
smile.gif


David Rock

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Money can't buy happiniess, but it can buy knives, and knives make me happy.
 
A lot of good points, but I can see some major differences developing.

1) I believe that you will have to separate custom knives from factory knives. Margins on custom knives are much higher, volume much lower, and each knive has had the individual attention of one person. The same person that repairs it. If the custom maker had to pay $60+ per hour shop time to a helper to repair those pieces, the attitude would change.

2) I believe that you will have to separate Fixed Blades from folders. Folders are far more suseptable to problems. Far more parts...and they move. I have never heard of someone wearing out their FB by taking it in and out of the sheath over and over. Many knife nuts will open and close a folder 100 times more in "playing" that Practical use would ever create.

There are many that do abuse the maker. "I bought this factory kitchen paring knife 12 years ago. I paid $10 for it. I've already had replaced 3 times, I use it for splitting
kindling. Please send me a new one. This one broke while cutting a piece of cheese".

"I took this knife apart. I couldn't get it back together. I lost some fo the parts, so I reground parts to make it work, but it didn't. Please send me a new knife". (Military)

These are actual customer service letters.

A factory cannot replace knives on this level and stay in business.

Reasonable and Win/win should include the factory as well. Factories like Spyderco provide much value at reasonable prices with low margins. Each customer service letter ends of costing the factgory $50 in time, labor, letters, telephone calls or Emails, freight and that doesn't include the cost of new knife if it has to be replaced. We do hundeds per week. lotta $.

Another point of view?
sal
 
Broke it cutting cheese - RITFLMAO!!

DannyC makes a very valid point when he said, "People would rather just sell and sell, earn a couple of bucks, then forget the whole thing...". Having spent almost 2 years in the Middle East, I certainly found this attitude to be prevalent in many places. Not all - there were some places that did operate honorably. One thing that leads to this is that the actual owners of many businesses, at least in the Middle East, may have never stepped foot in the business. The businesses are totally operated by, well, foreigners to that country. They don't have a real stake in the business, except to sell as much as possible. And turnover is extremely high. I do not mean to sound negative on foreigners, but many of them are extremely poor and making the immediate dollar is their ONLY goal. Long-term customer support simply doesn't exist because they probably won't be around that long anyway.

In such conditions, until the day warrantees are international, it is going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get good warranty service on an international level. Sure some companies can afford the costs - Sony, Toyota, Ford - the big dogs. Not small ones.

Yes, the cost of shipping internationally are expensive, for either the consumer or the manufacturer. But that is life.

I know that as long as I buy a quality product, such as Spyderco or Benchmade, it's the product itself, not the warranty, that is going to do the work. If it breaks, I TRUST the company to do the reasonable thing. Most often, good companies deserve that trust. When I come across one that doesn't, guess what? I tell others and I quit supporting that company. Conversely, when a company goes that extra mile for service, I always tell others about that. Like Sal pointed out, customer service it can be very expensive. I believe that, when a company goes that extra mile for me, I owe them a debt - to tell others so that the company continues to thrive. That is the only way a company can provide good support and stay in business.

[Forumite getting off soapbox]
 
Ladies and Gentlemen:
Sal brings up some very important points, the mfg has to be able to stay in business for the guarantee to be valid. Lets( as a committee) try to write the guarantee (one for fixed blades and one for folders) that both of us, Mfg. and ELU, can accept. Do we have a volunteer to post item #1 of this warranty?
Then we can add to it or omit from it. Lets keep it as short and consise as we can too.

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P.J.
YES,it is sharp, just keep your fingers out of the way!
www.silverstar.com/turnermfg


 
About a lifetime guarantee being contingent on a guarantor staying in business, PJ is certainly right. However, I don't think a knife is like an appliance - more years of use probably doesn't increase the chances that the knife will "wear out" (unless you subscribe to the statistical view that the longer you use a knife, the more likely it is that you'll run into a knife-breaking situation). I'd say that if the knife is good to go for the first few years of ownership and use, it will stay that way. Of course, it's certainly nice to know that in 30 years, so-and-so knife maker will still be around - gives you a definite warm and fuzzy.

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Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
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