Guards - Safety or Embellishment?

[KnifeHead]

I think that some knives, like self defense and fighting blades for instance, would be "safer" for the user if they have a finger(or hand) guard to help keep the hands away from the blade in the heat of battle. Since I don't participate in much of that activity(actually none in 50 years ) I can't relate to that and leave discussion of those kinds of blades to the experts thereof.

BUT....What about all other styles of knives. It seems to lean more heavily towards the embellishment side than the safety side. The guard has more effect in keeping you away from what you are cutting than keeping you from cutting yourself.

I would guess that most cutting injuries are somewhere else(like, maybe, the head ), not on the hand with the knife in it. To me, guards are PURDY THANGS and not really that functional. What do you think?

 

[dovergroup]

Two of the best known fighting knife makers, Emerson and Dozier, aren't known for guards. I'm no expert but these guys are and their customers who pay top dollar could demand anything, but don't seem to be very interested in that feature.
Good luck,
Leo

 

[KnifeHead]

Two of the best known fighting knife makers, Emerson and Dozier, aren't known for guards. I'm no expert but these guys are and their customers who pay top dollar could demand anything, but don't seem to be very interested in that feature.
Good luck,
Leo

Interesting! Thanks for the info on that.

 

[the possum]

I've used lots of knives without guards; take most slipjoint folders for example. Yet I don't follow your logic. I don't see why a guard has to be in the way. Maybe some are, but that's all in the way you design it. If you're talking about a smallish utility fixed blade, the guard doesn't have to be any thicker than the handle scales, and doesn't have to get in the way of cutting, especially if the design has a finger groove/edge drops below the handle anyway.

You have to take into account that the consequences of some design elements are more drastic than others. If the knife will be used for general slicing 99.5% of the time, and hard thrusting maybe 0.5% of the time, should it have a guard if the handle is straight and slick? If it did, it would just be ever so slightly annoying (but probably not a real hindrance) over 99% of the time. But without, you will be slicing your hand open within a couple months of use. Each of us decides what kinds of tradeoffs or compromise we're comfortable with, and some of us prefer to prepare for that 1% of the time when things go wrong.

Last night, I sat down to play the third movement to J.S. Bach's fourth harpsichord concerto to unwind. I enjoy doing that too much to risk tendon damage.

 

[KnifeHead]

I need to give more details about what I am talking about. This discussion is more about the kind of guard that is added on to the front part of the handle that would protude up or down, but usually down, and not out on the sides(left and right).

I think a finger groove up into the profile of the blade makes more sense than a guard protuding down past the the edge. Hopefully that clarifies what I am trying to convey.

 

[the possum]

This discussion is more about the kind of guard that is added on to the front part of the handle that would protude up or down, but usually down, and not out on the sides(left and right).

I think a finger groove up into the profile of the blade makes more sense than a guard protuding down past the the edge.

Yes, I see what you're saying now, and I would like to add some counterpoints. Some pictures to illustrate and compare the designs I'm talking about here would really help, but I'm not gonna do that so I don't look like I'm picking on a maker or somethin'. Again, I can see the reasons for compromising in a number of ways, so I'm not trying to say one is the best solution.

I like the idea of using a finger groove and contours to keep the hand secure too. But then again, this is the perfect place to use a guard or bolsters that do not drop below the edge. On lots of designs that have the finger groove and simple handle slabs, the slabs do not follow the contour of the tang all the way to the front of the grip. In other words, your fingers are right up against the blade stock, and your thumb has to press on only the spine. In many cases, if they tried making the handle material extend up beyond the finger groove, it would be too fragile. So you're left with a design that does not give comfort and support to your fingers/thumb in precisely the area where it's needed most. I think you could add bolsters or a short guard here such that it followed the shape of the handle all the way up to the front of the grip. This would not hinder cutting at all, and your fingers would be pressing against much wider/thicker stock now instead of just the thin tang.

Likewise, a metal guard (and pommel/butt cap) can help protect the handle material from damage if the knife is dropped or whatever.

Now, another problem with this, is that it really only works on knives wide enough to accomodate the contours. If the overall design is rather narrow, you won't have much any room to add the notches, so a guard that drops below the handle/edge line may be needed instead. Also, the more grooves and contours you add to the handle, the more specific it becomes to being used in just one grip position. Some may prefer to keep the handle fairly straight and simple so the hand can comfortably grasp it in a very wide range of grip positions. So again, a proper guard may be a better solution in that case as a safety measure.

 

[Fred.Rowe]

A friend and I were talking about this, Thursday; Bob's day to come by my

shop. "Do you think guards are more a matter of tradition or function"?

"The history of edged weapons plays a large part", I responded. Knives

were used for protection or for engaging in battle for millenian. A knife

without a guard might result in the loss of a diggit, or a hand under these

circumstances. It's hard for todays makers to overcome thousands of years

of this mindset especially when making: fighters, Bowies or tacticals.

When a person begins making knives they tend to follow a more traditional

form in there knives, expanding into their own style as they progress.

Guard or guardless depending on the function.

I hung wallpaper for ten years using a RedDevil single edge razor blade knife

and inflicted some fairly deep cuts on my body. The knife had no guard,

maybe it should have.

Fred

 

[Tommegow]

I have lost the full use of my Rt pinky due to having my hand slip down a handle cutting the flexor tendon on the blade of a knife, maybe I am just more paranoid becasue of that incident
My kitchen knives do not have guards, the knives I use most. I do not think them a danger for cutting my hand holding the knife. I have never cleaned a deer with a knife without one! Warm tallow, blood and misc. body fluids make the knife slippery and dangerous without a guard. My fish fillet knive has deep finger grooves and a thumb groove(?) I am very cautious with it because of the fish blood, fluids, and slime. I do worry somewhat while using it.

 

[lawp]

I am a collector of straight blades, not a user. That said, I would not collect a knife incapable of field work. It must be functional. I prefer the drop point hunters of the American old masters (Loveless, Sigman, Dowell, Poplin, etc.) which invariably have an added finger guard and tapered tang. These, to my eye, and true to the vision of the masters, are most beautiful and most functional. Some current makers follow this tradition, and I collect them, but most do not. Why not? Dozier (for example) makes good knives, but where is the finger guard? A knife in that price range (Randall, Cordova, Cox, Davis, Terry, etc.) normally has a finger guard. I feel there is something missing without it, and the maker has shorted the customer.

 

[IronWolf]

there have been some interesting points made so far. I for one happen to be straddling the fence when it comes to guards.

When it comes to a field/utility knife, most of my favorite blades have no guard. at least not an added one. many of my blades involve a dropped edge, where the edge of the blade is below the handle material enough to form a guard of it's own. This way, neither guard, nor fingers get in the way of the cut, and the entire blade can be used. many guarded blades have a section of the blade that cannot be used in many circumstances, because of the angle created when the guard hits the material being cut.
when making period pieces, many of which are a cross between utility and combat, a guard becomes more necessary. I do not relish the idea of somebody elses blade/club, etc sliding down a blade and onto my hand. there guards serve a definite purpose, and sometimes become highly specialized.

Ken Nelson

 

[deker]

I feel there is something missing without it, and the maker has shorted the customer.

Personally, I think that's a pretty strong statement. Just because a maker's personal style doesn't fit your particular ideal they're "shorting" their customers? That said, to each his own. Your dollars spent as a collector will help those whose work you like. It's a capatalistic society we live in and your $$ talks.

Aside from that, I think that, much like anything else, there is a time and a place for a guard, and a time and a place to not have one. I'd argue that any activity where one uses a knife that can end up slippery (dressing game/fish, work on a boat or anyplace wet, etc) a guard is a darned good idea. Sure 99.9% of the time you're likely to be fine, but that .1% can be the difference that causes serious injury. I'd hate to have anything I made hurt anybody due to something that I as a maker could have prevented.

Certain types of knives don't need a guard. Carving knives, kitchen knives, little pocket whittlers, etc don't have a formal guard because they don't really need them for their intended purpose (and in some cases a guard would hinder their use as intended). In other cases (chef's knives) the design of the blade compensates for the lack of a formal "guard" in a potentially slippery situation. I'd put forward the idea that as a maker you should be thinking about the intended use of a piece and design it accordingly. If there's a 1% chance that in the course of it's intended use your knife will be used in a manner that could cause injury due to a design element, that design should be re-thought. That's not to say that we should design for safety over utility, or that we should try to protect the guy who might try to dress a deer with a slipjoint folder, just that we should be thinking about safety in design.

Another thing to think about is "classic design". Lets' face it, a LOT of knives are sold just to be collected, or because the look of them evokes something in the buyer. In all honesty, who in the modern world needs a bowie? I'd argue that very few folks today honestly NEED that type of knife for everyday use. But is a bowie a bowie without a guard? I don't think so.

I've rambled a bunch and strayed off target now, so I'll quit, but that's my $.02....since you asked

-d

 

[fitzo]

It is interesting to note how different peoples' knife and weapon traditions do or don't have guards. It certainly varies around the world and across time. To suggest that they are somehow incomplete without a guard may well be a bit narrowminded.

The pukko knives of Scandanavia have no guards, and the seax didn't either. The pukko has certainly stood the test of time.

I have a Montagnard sheath knife given to me by a relative who served in Viet Nam and it has no guard. Many knives of "Oriental" design traditionally lack guards and the designs have been around a long time.

Green River style knives had no guard. There have been a huge number of butcher and kitchen knives over the centuries that lack a guard. They certainly have a few man hours of successful use.

I think it was the rather popular "Natchez bowie" that lacked a guard, also.

Indeed, concealment knives would be hampered with a guard for concerns of getting caught when drawn.

I guess what I am saying is that there is no clear cut yea or nay, it is a design choice and not a mandate, frequently driven by cultural tradition.

 

[leapinglizard]

Knifehead,
I strongly prefer a guard on my knives. I consider every knife I have a "User". Some obviously get used more than others. But I have had occasions in the past where in the dark, or while dressing an animal with a blood covered blade with a slippery handle (especially in the cold), where my hand would slip forward (if your hands are cold they may be numb) and some of the blood wound up being my own. I do not think that the "guard" has to be large or added on, it can simply be something to prevent your hand from sliding forward and something to help index cold hands in the dark.
My fish filet knives do not have either and I consider them especially dangerous (to me) and am particularily careful when using them. The big fish we have in Alaska with the cold waters up here can make for slippery and dangerous cleaning.

I think that the "guards" can be made attractice and functional.

Anyway. My $.02

Mark

 

[lawp]

.....Aside from that, I think that, much like anything else, there is a time and a place for a guard, and a time and a place to not have one...

Yes, I agree. And upon re-reading, I see that my post did not state clearly my point. My focus as a collector is on drop point hunters, and I did not intend to have my remarks generalized to include any other type of knife. And my contention is that a drop point hunter is less functional, incomplete, without a finger guard. I see that others agree with me. My point is that when a maker makes this style of knife and expects a high price for it, he should realize that a collector or user expects to have a finger guard.

 

[Kevin Davey]

As Mike mentioned, it seems traditional for Scandinavians and other northern European countries (Norway) not to have any guard , handle profiles usualy follow the blade, with no finger contours...been like that for at least a 1000 years....and they are keen outdoors people who like to hunt and fish a lot....with cold hands....

 

[adeboer]

Lawp-

Mr. Dozier will add a finger groove to any of our knives for you. We are a custom maker and we will make a knife that suits your needs. Call us at the shop if you want to discuss your options.

Have a nice weekend!
Alicia
Office Manager -Dozier Knives

 

[crex]

Cool thread! I get it thrown at me from both ends. As a custom maker, one client will ask "can you make that same knife with a guard" (they usually follow that with a mumbled "I'm clumsy" or the like), not to say that's not a very valid reason. The next one will say that a guard gets in the way. There are all kinds of folks out there and they have their prefrences for their own reasons. I just try to accomodate where I can.

Personally (another matter entirely) I perfer no guard, finger groove yes at times (fillet knife for example). I, however, subscribe to the adage I heard both from my father and a Scandanavian lass selling pukkas.....know which end is sharp and don't touch it carelessly! I've field dressed over a hundred deer with just a simple Case 3 blade congress pocket knife. Cut myself once because I let somone distract me.

Yes, as a user and a maker I have cut myself many times over the years, but don't think I can attribute any of those times to the lack of a guard. Stupidity..well of course yes. Carelessness...the same. Only good lesson from those incidents was a cut from a sharp knife heals alot faster so keep her sharp.

 

[Alan Molstad]

It was the winter of 78...lots of snow and I and my old 1952 pickup were out in the middle of it.

I was attempting to get into town from our farm when I drove into the ditch.
The walk back to our house was long and cold.
My dad fired up the tractor and we drove back out into the storm to pull my car out.

When we got to my truck my hands were numb with cold.
Dad backed up to where my truck was .
My truck was stuck with the nose down into a ditch and my back tires up off the roadbed.
I dragged the pull-chain from the tractor to my truck but was unsure where I should attach the chain.

Long ago I had lost my bumper, and there is not much else to attach the chain to under there.
i decided to loop the chain around the leaf spring, however due to all the frozen snow I would have to chip a hole above the spring for the chain to slip though.

I had a old hunting knife with me andf i started to hack at the snow and ice with it.
By now it was too dark to really see, I was tired, and so cold my hands and fingers were numb.
I was so angry at the cold and I was hacking as fast as i could at the ice. My hands were just a dark blur in the night..

after a while I felt something weird.
I stopped and had a look at what was going on.

In the dark i could see that the thin metal guard of the knife had been bent over under the force of my hand's blows, and had allowed my fingers to slip onto the raw blade of the hunting knife where I had gotten cut.
Except for the cold I would have felt much pain...there was a lot of blood splattered all over the snow by now.


I learned a lesson....Guards are important...and a good guard can be the most important part of a knife.

I always make as best and as big a guard as i can get away with my all my blades....

 

[Azis]

Guards in many ways are like seat belts or saftey glasses, or a bike helmet there are times when they are a very good idea and times when they are in the way. I don't think there can be one right answer to the question.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

I think I owe it to my customers to supply my knives with substantial blades.
Not only do they add protection, but can facilitate different cutting stances.
I couldn't get the photo of the "rope cutting/spear point shaving" application by myself, but there's at least one more than these two.
It helps to have a nice ricasso/choil area.
It depends on the knife!