Guards - Safety or Embellishment?

Thanks for all the great input to this thread so far. The thoughts expressed have been some of the most informative about knife design I have have read in a while(even the example of how NOT to use a knife :D )

Keeping in mind that we are talking about using knives and not just looking at them, I want to add another angle or thought to the discussion. It doesn't take a lot of brain power to realize that it is possible for the hand to slip and become cut on the blade. Some great examples were given on how that can happen. Nobody wants to see someone get hurt or permanantly maimed by a knife while it is being used.

From a design standpoint, a protruding guard on the bottom renders some of the blade unusable in some situations and actually gets in the way. Compare the crappily drawn knives in the illustration below. #1 has a section of the blade that is "unusable". #2 does not. I edited the shape of the handle to be more like what was described earlier in the thread.
guard-noguard-1.jpg


I say "unusable" in quotes because it isn't TOTALLY unusable. After all, it is helping to hold the pointy part onto the handle....so that's good.

But, seriously, if you want to make a slicing cut with that blade from ricasso to tip, you are limited by the space you have below guard, not below the edge of the blade. There is potentially a void in the usable space of the knife due to the guard protruding below.

Some designs of knives with guards, like the one in this thread and Ed Fowlers design, functionally take into account this loss of usable cutting area by extending the ricasso. It makes a place to choke up on the blade in front of the guard as well but now you have fingers in front of the guard. Oooops.

Do those fingers not need a guard?

So, here are more questions to go with the first one; Is the #2 knife a superior design to the #1 knife as far as access to blade and safety?

If the answer to that question is YES then what about the protruding guard; Is it more for looks than being functionally sound? I really like the looks of a shiney finger guard but it doesn't seem to be a better choice for knife usability than a finger notch.

....discuss :D
 
Kerry Hampton said:
It makes a place to choke up on the blade in front of the guard as well but now you have fingers in front of the guard. Oooops.

Do those fingers not need a guard?
Click to expand...
The guard stops the fingers from going onto the blade, so any finger in front of a guard is at risk to be sure...

However as one finger infront of the guard will then lock the guard between fingers it might actually be a safe position.
 
I made a slight change in the handle shape of knife #2 based on Ironwolf's description.
 
Azis said:
Guards in many ways are like seat belts or saftey glasses, or a bike helmet there are times when they are a very good idea and times when they are in the way. I don't think there can be one right answer to the question.
Click to expand...

This really speaks to why I started the thread. I wanted to see what people's opinions were about them. This is paraphrasing what has been said so far:

Guards are needed for safety.
Guards are traditional part of design.
Guards are not necessarily needed for safety.
Finger grove is just as good as an added guard.
Guards are a matter of taste.

Nobody commented about the design considerations of a piece of stuff hanging down beyond the plane of the blade edge and the potential of it getting in the way. I know, it's hard to take someone serious when he has knives sticking out of his head.:o

Thanks for all the input.
 
Ive never been a huge fan of guards on my knives, but have never cut myself because of a lack of a guard, either....ive been using knives for a long time and it simply hasn't happened yet. The main thing I think they come in handy for are stabbing actions, but to be honest, there arent too many situations where a knife stabs hard enough that i worry. i tend to slice, cut, chop a lot more and the advantages of being able to choke up have always outweighed the perceived minority situations where i would want a guard. Ive always felt guard inhibited my use of a knife more than they added safety that I needed....but thats my .02....
 
Kerry,

I like your illustrations; I'm just too lazy to do similar right now. The "problem area" you've outlined on knife #1 seems like a moot point to me. Even if you cut the guard off, that exact same red triangle would still be there, because of your fingers gripping the handle. So, I guess our fingers are just in the way too? :)

Likewise on knife #2, I note the whole handle is narrower with the edge dropped below. While I agree this is a perfectly valid way to approach the issue, I don't believe every knife has to look like a chef's knife. I like narrow blades for some things, and that approach just isn't possible then.

I have always found the point of a blade very useful. I'm not sure why this is automatically equated to "stabbing". (maybe it's just me) Lots of cutting chores require some amount of force forward, even if not perfectly forward as in thrusting. A single guard does not seem to get in my way when whittling a stick, or slicing plastic or sacks, or butchering. (the top arm of a double guard does get in the way for me though.) I see room for lots of ways to interpret and design a safe and serviceable knife. So I don't think it would be right to say that guards are good or bad on the whole; it depends on how they work with the rest of the design.
 
the possum said:
.....Likewise on knife #2, I note the whole handle is narrower with the edge dropped below. While I agree this is a perfectly valid way to approach the issue, I don't believe every knife has to look like a chef's knife.......
Click to expand...

When I started this thread I wanted to get some discussion on whether the guard actually protected the cutting hand. We heard varying opinions that says it does and doesn't. I think most people would have guessed this would be the response.

The possum makes some excellent points but I zero'd in on this..that the guard plays a serious part in eye appeal and perception. It isn't all about safety and functionality; we know the guard fits the bill there. Maybe a guard is "cool" because it makes the knife look a bit more like a fighting knife...a more macho looking knife to carry. I think it does.
 
Kerry Hampton said:
The possum makes some excellent points but I zero'd in on this..that the guard plays a serious part in eye appeal and perception. It isn't all about safety and functionality; we know the guard fits the bill there. Maybe a guard is "cool" because it makes the knife look a bit more like a fighting knife...a more macho looking knife to carry. I think it does.
Click to expand...

Whoa there, man. I should have worded that differently then; that is NOT what I meant at all. When I said I don't think all knives should "look like" chef's knives, I wasn't talking about aesthetics. This just seemed like a much more concise way to say that not every knife has to have a very wide blade, because that can make it more difficult to turn it in cuts. It doesn't have to have the edge dropped well below the handle, because that can make the blade turn while chopping, and dictate a different cutting style, as compared to upswept skinners/boning knives for example. An edge dropped well below the handle will also do the exact same thing the guard is blamed for: putting the edge farther away from your fingers for less control.

These are just a few of the things I was really getting at with that statement; it just seemed quicker/easier to say how they look.
 
the possum said:
Whoa there, man. I should have worded that differently then; that is NOT what I meant at all. When I said I don't think all knives should "look like" chef's knives, I wasn't talking about aesthetics. This just seemed like a much more concise way to say that not every knife has to have a very wide blade, because that can make it more difficult to turn it in cuts. It doesn't have to have the edge dropped well below the handle, because that can make the blade turn while chopping, and dictate a different cutting style, as compared to upswept skinners/boning knives for example. An edge dropped well below the handle will also do the exact same thing the guard is blamed for: putting the edge farther away from your fingers for less control.

These are just a few of the things I was really getting at with that statement; it just seemed quicker/easier to say how they look.
Click to expand...

That helps explain your point on that a whole lot better. Thanks:thumbup:
 
Alan Molstad said:
The guard stops the fingers from going onto the blade, so any finger in front of a guard is at risk to be sure...

However as one finger infront of the guard will then lock the guard between fingers it might actually be a safe position.
Click to expand...

Well gaurds on fix bladed knives more so on knives for fighting are not there to prevent slipping of you hand but to gaurd you agaisnt another blade. Take a typical main goughe (sp?) The upswept gaurd on one of these daggers was there to capture and in some cases break a sword blade. The dagger was typically a look alike for the sword that it was a companion to hence the other name companion dagger. So a wide bladed hand and a half swords (broad sword) dagger would resemble the sword it self and have a wide blade and nearly identical hilt/gaurd. It was also made to deliver a cut or thrusst or both. I have a CCC main goughe that resembles a typical hand and a half sword. It is razor sharp and i could easly slice with the entire length of the blade. For a china made knife its quite nice looking and well made suprisingly. Regardless gaurds are les for stoping your hand from being cut by your own knife (in most cases) and more to protect you from other blades. On most hunting knives they are to protect the hand and depeending on chore it made for may have a intergrated gaurd such as the drawing shows in a typical skinning type blade or a extended gaurd in a hunting knife that is mostly used to disarticulate a leg hoof or what have you.

Small game skinners are the odd exception as most profesional trappers use little more than a utility knife blade with a hunk of wood on it. We have a rubber factory here called rodny rubber and they use this little triangle shaped blade in a wood handle the exposed blade is only a inch or so long and comes to a point. All the local for profit trappers here use those.

IMO the more corse the work your doing the more of a gaurd you need. Now ring gaurds are a entirly new topic those are nothing more than fingre breakers if you get in a fight and are other wise useless as any thing but decoration.
 
Kitchen knives dont need guards.

In fact, most of the knives you use around the house dont need a guard .

Guards are mostly used and needed on knives that go with men outdoors.
When you are out on a jobsite, or working far from others, you really cant be taking a chance of getting cut. The guard protects the user from getting his fingers as well as his life from danger.

But a Kitchen knife needs the cutting action of the full blade. Many food items found in the kitchen are best cut with a blade that drops below the hand, this allows the user to rock/chop the food better.

If you cut yourself in the kitchen, who cares?...The firstaid kit is like 3 feet away.

Thus, there is a very good reason why all the knives I make have guards on them...and...there is a very good reason why some other knives dont need a guard.
 
Alan Molstad said:
Kitchen knives dont need guards.
Click to expand...

I can agree for the most part, but as I mentioned earlier, I think they are a lot nicer with a bolster.

Compare the bolster on this Henckels knife:
47.jpg


to a similar pattern from Chicago Cutlery without a bolster:
1032.jpg


Now, can you honestly tell me that bolster is going to seriously impede any sort of normal kitchen cutting chores?

On the other hand, I use both of these knives in my kitchen and really prefer the more comfortable feel of that nicely countoured bolster against my fingers, rather than the thin square heel of the Chicago's blade.

If you cut yourself in the kitchen, who cares?...The firstaid kit is like 3 feet away.
Click to expand...

I care! Tendon damage can happen in the kitchen or "the field" and this is extremely important to me. If I had reduced function of my fingers I would honestly enjoy life a lot less than if I lost a whole leg. Not joking there.
 
yes, both blades can be used in the same manner as you rock the blade keeping the tip on the cutting board and chopping the food.

Kitchen and camp knives dont need a guard as they are being used for jobs that require a full blade.

My guess is that another blade that is made for outdoor use that does not need a guard is a survival knife .

There must be many type of knives that have little if any need for a way to protect the fingers based on the type of work each is asked to do.

The guard is very needed on a blade that might see some real hard action out in the fields...
 
the possum said:
I can agree for the most part, but as I mentioned earlier, I think they are a lot nicer with a bolster.

Compare the bolster on this Henckels knife
[...]
Now, can you honestly tell me that bolster is going to seriously impede any sort of normal kitchen cutting chores?
Click to expand...

I agree that appropriate treatment of the handle/blade (or handle/ricasso)
join improves the look of a knife a great deal. Simple slab handles with
no finishing can be perfectly acceptable for a using knife, but it seems
to me that something is lacking for a higher end piece. On the other hand
a slab handled Moran camp knife with the plain wood ending in silver wire
inlaid scallop shells is anything but plain or unfinished looking :D

Now, about the bolster on that Henckels knife:

the possum said:
On the other hand, I use both of these knives in my kitchen and really prefer the more comfortable feel of that nicely countoured bolster against my fingers, rather than the thin square heel of the Chicago's blade.
Click to expand...

Yes the bolster does make the knife more comfortable in the hand. On the
other hand, the fact that the bolster extends all the way to the edge is in
my opinion a defect because it guarantees that repeated sharpening will
produce a dip at the rear of the edge making the knife harder to use and
maintain as it gets older.
 
Alan Molstad said:
Thus, there is a very good reason why all the knives I make have guards on them...and...there is a very good reason why some other knives dont need a guard.
Click to expand...

The "reason" is what I was asking for discussion about. Some folks reason it is for safety and others reason it isn't needed for safety. I realize that both answers might be correct.

If if helps for some users to have a guard so that they can go slicing away without having to think about their cutting hand slipping and becoming maimed, then a guard is needed. Apparently for some people the guard isn't needed and they get along just fine.

It sounds like the idea of the finger guard being a crossover adornment of the fighting blade has been completely dismissed by the folks that are in the must-have-a-finger-guard-for-safety camp. Is this a correct statement? Just wondering.
 
Kerry Hampton said:
It sounds like the idea of the finger guard being a crossover adornment of the fighting blade has been completely dismissed by the folks that are in the must-have-a-finger-guard-for-safety camp. Is this a correct statement? Just wondering.
Click to expand...

I think that both types of guards have a long enough history that it's hard to make a case either way. To my mind a double fighting knife guard includes the top part to prevent an opponent's blade from sliding into your hand while both include the bottom part to prevent your hand from contacting the edge of the knife. There are perfectly valid reasons to want that protection on a using knife as a number of people have explained.

I can't see a good reason for a double guard on a using non-fighting knife. Since many "combat" knives are primarily used as general utility knives, it's understandable that a lot of military folks are happy with single (or no) guards as well.
 
A lot has to do with the design of the knife and what it's intended purpase is. I wouldn't want a large gaurd on a small caping or parring knife, but I almost refuse to build a hunter without a gaurd. And I for one realy like Ed Fowlers style, the design with the wide flat ricasso in front of the gaurd realy locks it in your hand for very secure controll. On nearly every knife I build or own there's some sort of finger protection, either a droped blade and rounded area, or a full gaurd.
 
I want to make clear I am not advocating that a particular design of finger guard should or shouldn't be used. I see this thread as being a place to discuss why finger guards are designed the way they are.

G.L.Drew posted this nice little 3 finger skinner and I wanted to link it here as and example of how both safety and blade access can be accomplished with traditional looking style. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=449212

Obviously you can't build a big bowie this way but this looks nice.
 
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