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C

Cliff Stamp

BANNED
Joined
Oct 5, 1998
Messages
17,562
This forum is titled "Knife Reviews & Testing" and the posts should be contrained to exactly that. If there is a problem with a knife you are reviewing them by all means mention it, that information is just as, or probably more important than the positive. However, do not then give your opinion about what this implies about the character of the maker or those that buy the knives.

There is a bit of a double standard here which is that the positive will be generally be accepted but the negative will not, but this is the general rule for all the forums. You can praise someone but not attack.

Lastly, if there is a question about policy and you think that you were unfairly treated then this is not the place for it either - go to the GB&U.

Specific to this issue, I was hoping that this would die away, and ask those would feel that the comments made in the various Lynn Griffith threads were personal and want to attack in kind not to do so. It will not solve anything. Reasoning with the individuals is not likely to accomplish anything either and will just prolong the situation.

To those that have caused this pollution mainly TomW, and lately Tim Herman, you have stated your opinion, there is no need to keep repeating it. Nor will it be tolerated any further.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,
I haven't really read all of the threads in question except maybe to pop on and quickley scan and get the gist of them but I do want to say something that struck me. It seemed to me to be the first time that someone came on and said that they were not satisfied with a knife which blew me away because that is something that I have never done.

I have only come on to tell about knives that I own that have performed well. I have only responded to and commented on photos of knives that I thought looked great. If I disliked how the knife looked, I didn't respond.

I had some knives by a certain maker and the knifes disappointed, I never came on and gave a bad review. I always assumed that in the reviews forum if you didn't have anything good to say you didn't say it. I dont know if this is right either because this can be misleading. Saying something bad might only ignite a war with those who might take a bad review of a knife they had good luck with personally, especially if they like the maker's work.

I think reviews can be some what misleading of what is good out there. Certain makers will get more coverage than others and this might appear to a new comer that these makers are the top makers in the knife world. When really many great knife makers might not even ever get a mention or get seldom mentioned. Hopefully the reviews forum can bring some of these guys to light.

It is like a pendulum that always doesnt balance because of certain makers being hyped up more than others and because some actually develop a following. In all cases does this mean that the maker's knives are superior to others, no, not at all.

But, from what I have seen in the past, its like a stock market correction, if a maker does get more coverage and develop a following and the notoriety continues to go up like a good stock and all the reviews are great and the more and more people are buying and talking, there hits the point of correction. In the knife world the correction comes in the form of what Tom W. posted, although wrongly, it comes in the form of Mike Turber's putting four knives up one against the other and posting the results.

My feeling is that the way to correct the hype, and the pendulum swinging too far in someone's favor while neglecting others is to put some of these knives to test against others like Mike did. I personally would like to see more of this sort of thing here in the reviews forum.

 
Cliff
Who the hell do you think you are to control the content of what i post?
I posted an honest review. That was not pollution. Being attacked in every possible manner to divert the attention from my honest opinion is the source of the pollution. Get this Cliffey I'll will have to be banned from this forum to stop me from expressing my honest opinions on knife issues. I will not be bullied or flamed into
being keept from posting my honest opinion.
Or are you attemptiing to turn this forum into another censored Lynn Griffith type forum? You're trying to censor the wrong guy Cliffey? Who are you to decide that the truth will not be tolerated?
Save that for the Lynn Griffith forum
 
Yeah cliffy!!!!
What does Tim have to do with all the pollution?He wasn`t the one doing the reviews.The 2 reviews I seen were from md2020
and TomW.I didnt see anything wrong with the review on that specific knife.Your the one that had to keep the subject alive instead of keeping your trap shut.Couldn`t just let it die....huh Cliffy???Your the biased one!
Did you see the knife??I didn`t think so!So how is it,the 2 noted above are polluting this here forum??

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Jay
Life is like a box of chocolates,never know what your gona git!
 
Everyone has been asking why magazines are not MORE critical in their reviews....I think a lot of that has been answered right here on this particular forum. It causes bad blood and usually gets extrapolated way beyond what the reviewer initially intended with his comment. Not just bad blood between the maker but what about the guys out there that own the same blade and are having good luck with it. Saying that a blade is no good, or giving a negative-majority review, actually translates: the people that like them must be lacking intelligence, or just don't know knives.

This is far from the actual truth because, as I have stated before, I have seen too many cheap sorry-ass blades in the hands of skilled folks out-do the high-dollar scientifically accurate latest-greatest piece too many times. Having said that, I like quality blades, but I also recognize that the majority of the ACTUAL day-to-day field work around the world is done with what many of us consider sub-par quality.

As a writer, I believe in honest reviews. I absolutley refuse to write a review if I can't believe in what I'm writing. I also believe that it's usually just best to keep quiet when there is a particular piece that turns out just plain bad. Just because I have one piece that may not be up to par doesn't mean that the whole maker, company, or whole line of knives is at fault.

Sure, in my reviews I will state that the handle may not fit me well, or the edge design is not what I liked but these are personal opinions based on the way I use the blade. A writer/reviewer cannot speak for the masses. Instead we attempt to bring out as much information as we can and what we used the blade for. This allows the potential customer to make his mind up.

If anyone out there buys a knife solely because some writer said it was the best thing in town, then I don't have a lot of faith in the knife-buying public. I don't think this happens. I think all of us who love knives make our own minds up in the end. On the other hand, we will definitley remember the negative over the positive every time. It seems to be human nature.

As an example, a well respected manufacturer asked my opinion on a blade. The piece I got had some serious flaws but instead of blasting it across the air I waited until I ran into their rep at a show. I explained the problems honestly and I believe it has now instituted some change in the manufacturing process. This is a good thing. Sure I could have written the review and said...the ______ sucks and it would have hurt a respected maker's reputation and may have cost them sales. Maybe I just got a bad one? Instead, by being privately honest with the manufacturer it changes things for the good all around. Now, should a maker say that he doesn't care if his pieces are bad, thats when he needs to be aired publicly.

Just some thoughts.

Jeff

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Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com
 
cliff!

i htink you better look again before you drag my name into this one! i havent said a word about lynn or his knives since this has started. i think you better get a clue real fast and apologize for blaming pollution on me!

where do you get of dragging me into this one? pollute this pal.....(_|_)
 
couldn't we just recycle?
confused.gif
eek.gif
 
Cliff, why did you lock the thread that Lynn started and not the rest of them? I am concerned with the direction this forum is heading, all sides have good points and the threads would die off if left alone!

How about we just start a new forum? Lets call it "Days of our Knives" You know, "like sand through the blaster, so are the days of our knives!"

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www.simonichknives.com
 
Let's make something 100%, absolutely, positively clear.

The purpose of the Knife Reviews forum is to find out the end user's opinion of the knives that they purchase.

It's not here to sugarcoat the truth, sweep the ills under the rug, or use smoke, mirrors, & hype to decieve other users about the real properties of knives.

If there is something wrong with the knife I was interested in, I know that I *damn sure* would want to know what the flaws are with it, without relying on some hollow hype that a maker's fan club is spewing.

That being said, if you are going to post something negative, post facts. Make 100% sure that everything you say can backed up either through scientific principle or real world experience. God is in the details, folks. Pictures work. Scientific evidence works. Published sources work.

If you don't agree with something that someone perceives as negative, then it's your job to refute it. Opinions don't count. Again, go heavy on the details.

This isn't the forum for discussion of the prats and pitfalls of any particular member, maker or dealer. It's for the analysis and contemplation of knife information. You want to specifically discuss the failings of anyone, take it to the Good, Bad & Ugly. Unless, of course, it's tied into the knife review...
biggrin.gif
but that's dangerous ground again.

Let's all use a little common sense here.

A bad review is just that - a bad review. If the problems exist then there's undoubtedly a lesson to be learned, right? Hiding from the truth doesn't correct things.

I don't want people to mince words here and practice the art of diplomacy, but it doesn't have to turn into a spite and vitriol filled ranting and raving session. Pollution was probably a poor choice of words, but I can appreciate Cliff's sentiments.

Let's all be as thorough as possible in our reviews guys - especially the negative ones. The more ammunition you have, the more shots you can fire, and the more accurate you are, the less work you have to do later cleaning up the mess - and the less you have to get your hands dirty.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
cliff,

i also think an apology to tomw is in order! i failed to see anything but an honest review of a knife in which he found flaws. maddog2020 did the same thing but all the lynn camp jumped on them for badmouthing lynn as a person! did i miss all this in their reviews?

if the review was saying how wonderful the knife was and more than worth every penny, you think there would be all this reviewer bashing? i sure dont.

btw, kit sent me the knife first after he got it and i stayed away from this whole scenerio because i knew exactly what would happen if anything negative was said. so i have held and looked over the knife too. but i sure as hell aint gonna say a thing about it
tongue.gif




[This message has been edited by HermanKnives (edited 05-18-2000).]
 
Forgive me oh weblord for I sin,
and it was all over some G-10 handled tin,
made by some dude named lynn,
Griffith was his name,
I sure didn't think his knife looked so lame,
but the consequences of this bad review,
were hell on earth in a day or two,
what have I done to deserve this wrath from you,
why do you pick at this one bad review,
darn, you didn't even test the knife,
is this how you got your wife,
tom said that he posted his opinion,
infortunately it was in cliffs dominion,
cliff saw the writting but it was too late,
this thread was turning into his worst date,
so he tried to make some rules,
but he accused the wrong fools,
right at the end spark asks for moderation,
to stop the threads inflation,
The thread was like watching a movie from Rip Torn,
and it ended up Tango Uniform(TU)

On my eigth beer!

judge not with one knife review
 
I guess I'm going to have to start locking threads down... because I don't see anything productive being said anymore, and no, I don't consider venting productive.

Let's all chill out folks.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Jeff, I don't think it is the content so much as it is the manner in which it is presented. For example look at your recent comments on the Barteaux machete :

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum18/HTML/000607.html

There are a lot of negative aspects described in the review such as the balance, feedback, grip ergonomics and you have also described the poor initial edge geometry. Has any of this generated any feedback. No. Are there people who strongly disagree with you and like the Barteaux without your modifications. Yes - I being one of them and am in exact opposition to most of what you have said. How come then you don't see me or anyone else attacking you? Simple - it is the manner in which you have presented them.

Rob, I did not feel that it was going to be productive and would just provoke the situation. Due in part to the people he questioned but as well as those wanting to defend him. I did not lock the other threads as there is some valuable actual knife content in them and I did not want to shut down the discussion simply as some people were getting out of hand.

Donna, it is not necessary to have something good to say about the knife in order to post. In fact it would be refreshing to see a post go completely the other way as I have commented in the thread that Jeff Randall started in the above. The problem is simply in the style and the attitude of the reviewer.

The customer service issue that Spark brought up was a good point as it is very valuable to know but can be prone to generate flames. I have commented on this in Chrio's thread :

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001728.html

Dexter and Joe, I had an email wrote to you last night which I postponed and later on forget to send it thinking I had. If you think I have got out of line drop me an email and we can discuss it.

-Cliff
 
Good rule of thumb- Keep some basic respect when you make your post.

A tool of the weak mind it to attack the individual and not the subject matter at hand.

Hmmmmm....



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"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson

www.lameyknives.com
 
Here's my 2 cents, take it for what it is:
When I do a review, I make sure I do a few things that cut down on the amount of hatred produced.
1) I try to be concise with my language. In other words, I write the review, read it to see if it makes sense, then read it again to make sure that what I am saying is what I MEAN. I usually have to make several changes in my language to make my meaning come across and cut down on the amount of assumption that the reader has to make.


2) I keep my gross judgment statements to a minimum. I never say "this knife sucks, and here's why!". I may say, I liked this knife for this and that reason, but here are the changes i would make and WHY. The "why" is very important to validate your statements.


3) Have photos and words to back up your judgments. If you think something sucks, say why. Compare the knife to other knives of that size and class. Don't just make a blanket statement and move onto the next one.

These are all things that cut down on people's reaction. For example, in my last big review I stated that of the seven or so small fixed blades I tested, the REKAT Fang was one of the lowest performers in several categories. I also had data to back that up, and as such I didn't get a million flames from Fang fanatics (and there are a lot out there!) saying i was a crackhead. Also, I gave suggestions at how you can get better performance from your Fang, so it was a win-win situation.


Also, Cliff, while I have your attention, I wanted to know why when you had a question regarding Sean Perkins' policies about testing and warranties you took it straight to the forums and got in a public argument with him over it? That goes directly against the guidelines you set forth in another thread, so I wanted to know if you had a change of heart since then, or what the story is.

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My Knife & Sheath Pages:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/frames.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
Sheath Makers Referral Directory
agocs_s@dd.palmer.edu
Madpoet (Mel Sorg, Jr.) Tribute page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/madpoet/main.html
 
Hello,

with Fred Perrin we have tested somtimes so lame knives (BTW "lame" in french means "blade").
By respect to the knifemaker (even if did'nt like him also) we never publish this reviews...
We talk about the knives we really have a crush on.
Now I am not a knifemaker, Fred Perrin is.

I would not talk about the knives as he can.
and sometime we won't have the same opinion, but he's the knifemaker...not me.

Also there is knives we have bought and other we got the chance to use.

If we see that we "finally" don't like to much things in the knife, we don't post the review, because a maker can improve his skills and the knife we got is perharps the one picked by Murphy...

Anyway, a little review is just a point of view, I don't see anything sacred in it.
Perharps we are all friggin'liers after all...
On knives, beyond the hype, only time will tell...and some knives praise today are perharps the big jokes of tomorrow...

cheers,
JM
 
Cliff, perhaps you need to look for REAL personal attacks and moderate them. You dont need to run around and whine about the 'attitude and style' of other reviewers. Since this thread seems to generally be directed at Toms recent review, please point out in the original review where the personal attack was....I must have missed it. Your word is not the final word on how a review should be done. You may think Toms review was in bad form...I dont. You still have not apologized for your personal attack in which you say they are polluting the forum. You yourself said, personal attacks will not be tolerated. You may go back and read my reviews of that same knife. I myself liked it. Then, go and re-read Toms review. He pointed out many faults of the knife, and, like me, also stated his opinion on the knife. Nothing wrong with that Cliff. I fail to see why so many people got so bent out of shape over Toms review. I also fail to see what gives you the right to tell people how to do reviews. The fact is Cliff, the review was not glowing, but it was a well done review. The fact is, Tom was attacked first. He did his review, and almost immediately he was insulted, discredited, and verbally assaulted beyond all reason. I have been wondering lately why people are so sensitive. For makers, and customers alike, if a negative review is going to hurt your feelings so bad, and cause you to attack the messenger, maybe its time to find a new hobby. I speak from personal experience. Back when Lynn said he thought that CRKT swiped his Sniper design, I jumped in with both feet. People thought that was just plain wrong to accuse CRKT/ Ed Halligan of ripping off the design. You know what, they were right. I didnt see that they had a good point, instead I got on here and blasted them. I have learned alot since then. Number one, is look at all sides, and search out the facts. Dont let emotions take over, and blindly wander into a confrontation. This lesson can be applied to the recent reviews. Bad grinds were pointed out, less than perfect satin finish was pointed out, and a few other faults. There were no lies in there, and I know, I used to own the knife. My 'opinion' was that it was a good knife. Just because my opinion was good, does not mean that it should be accepted, when Toms is blasted because he feels the knife is sub-standard. Cliff, dont come on here and tell how a review should be written. And, next time you accuse somebody of polluting the forum...make sure you accuse the right people.



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Richard
icq 61363141
Just some knife pictures
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=110070&a=4518795
 
This is fun! Kinda puts me in mind of that book "One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest."

What the heck was the name of that nurse?



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Hoodoo

The low, hoarse purr of the whirling stone—the light-press’d blade,
Diffusing, dropping, sideways-darting, in tiny showers of gold,
Sparkles from the wheel.

Walt Whitman
 
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