Gun or knife as primary defense weapon??

Alright, I'll use the classic. "Never bring a knife to a gunfight."
Now, while this is true for about 99.99% of cases, there are always the exceptions.
Most professional firearms carriers,ie : police, military, fed, and competition shooters train to draw from a surprise and fire two rounds to center of mass on an assailant withing 1.5-2 seconds.(Hopefully stopping them) This usually works at ranges from 3-15 yards. Historically, this is the same range where most gunfights take place.
The average person in reasonably fit shape can cover a distance of 21 feet in an average time of 1.5-2 seconds. Thusly in order for you to stop a charging assailant they need to be further than 7 yards.

The Upside: When you close that distance with a knife you will most likely beat the draw.
The Downside: As you close that distance with a knife, you will most assuredly increase the odds of someone with a firearm hitting you.

Myself, I choose a Glock 19 as my civilian carry weapon,and a Beretta M9 when working for Uncle Sam. I always carry a knife even when I don't carry any firearm. Knives are just too doggone handy for just about everything, including potentially saving ones life.
Corpsman Up!!!!
Answering the call for 120yrs.
8404 SARC

[This message has been edited by recondoc (edited 10-07-2000).]
 
Depending on my mood and dress you can normally find a pistol and knife on me. If spending some time where firearms are illegal without a doubt you will find a knife or three on my person.

Normally I carry a nicely customized Colt 1911
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in a Rosen ARG or a pre sellout S&W 442 in a Kramer pocket holster. However, we went and picked up a Glock 19 for the wife and every now and again I carry it in a Galco rig.

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SAS RKBA freedom Scottsbluff Cowboy Shooters Cheyenne Regulators
 
I love my .45. It makes a big hole, for a handgun bullet. But, it cannot compare to the holes my knife makes. .45" does not sound so impressive when my knife makes more than three times the size (1.5" hole...stabbing over and over...) and about THREE FEET of bleeding holes in ONE SECOND of cutting. No handgun can compare to that type of injury in that short of time frame. You get cut up like that (several of your major arteries slashed in a matter of seconds), and there is no survival. You will be in hypovolemic shock in seconds, and bleed to death before the ambulance even arrives. That is real "stopping power", when it comes down to it.

The more I learn about how deadly a knife is at contact distance, and how ineffective a gun is a stopping a determined person (read up and you would be surprised how ineffective a handgun is at stopping a determined person), the more I believe:

"Don't bring a gun to a knife fight", because a "knife fight" is in your face and very bloody.
But, I also would rather not bring a knife to a gunfight, if the gunfight begins more than a few yards away. Unfortunately, most fights start closer than that. That is why I cover both bases, and train and carry both.

I certainly would never want to be in a knifefight while holding a gun, unless the fight starts at a distance, and the knife holder is unfit and untrained.



[This message has been edited by DerGlockenpooper (edited 10-07-2000).]
 
First choice...Brain
Second...Run
If 1 & 2 fail...Whatever I can get my hands on. Hope it never happens!

Paul
 
Originally posted by Owen:
A gun. -assuming it's reliable, and of adequate caliber.
Knives are great for backup, though a second gun would even be better.
Knives are much more useful on a daily basis, and more convenient to carry, but they are a last-ditch weapon, not first choice, IMO.<snip>
I see a lot of people talking about knife vs. gun and "most situations are under 7 yards", etc.<snip>
Someone give a real-life example of a person charging a gun (held by someone intent on killing them) and defeating them with a knife.
This is a fantasy.
Get your knife, I'll take a Sig P-220. If we pace off 7 yards and both go for it, you're dead. Plain and simple.
That is reality.

btw, that is assuming that neither person has their weapon drawn, and both know what is about to happen, and each is equally skilled with his/her weapon of choice. That is usually not the case, and I do not doubt that someone can successfully attack a gun-toter with a knife. I just think that it is the element of surprise that would allow them to succeed.<snip>

Had to edit this because my posts on this and similar discussions are bordering on confrontational, and it is not my wish to offend anyone. Just sharing a different viewpoint.

[This message has been edited by Owen (edited 10-07-2000).]
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Also, IMHO, a tidbit of info regarding the danger of generalizing the 7 feet or 21 feet, etc, of knife vs gun. LEO (especially street plainclothes), Military police and spec ops, etc, Also many a CCW training program, are very familiar with the Dan Inosato (spel?) video, knife/vs gun, and train against it. I regularly see fellow contestants at IPSC, IDPA, and police shoot pistol matches, draw and double tap at target distances of anywhere from 3 to 21 feet, and more, in well under a second.
Brain, H2H, Gun, backup gun, Knife, verbal strategy, et-al, singly or in combo, are all primary, front and first line defenses depending on a given scenario. Again, IMHO, its best to train with each with reliance on none, or exclusion of any.

 
Nice 1911, Shrike9. Looks like my custom Kimber National Match.
Forgot to mention my own carry since the thread seems veered that interesting way.
At anyone time depending on state, situation, and clothing:
Glock or Airweight or Guardian, + Benchmade or Spyderco, + Leatherman Wave (for gadget failures at home, work, or play).
Have fun.
Jion
 
Yes, there are some people out there that can draw and hit in under a second. But, what kind of rigs are they using? Could they do it against a moving target? And the biggest question is: not could they do it, but could any of US do it, on the street, from the rig we carry (not a sport/competition rig and a hot rodded gun). I would wager that few people in the world could draw from concealment on the street and make the hit against a moving target with their carry gun.
In fact, the Tueller drill has been tested all around the world, and actually they recently extended the range to 30 feet, because 21 feet is just too close. Even from an open, Police rig, being ready for the attack, %99.9 of people cannot even get one shot off. Now, how about if you are not ready for it?
The answer is: if you see a bladed threat within 30 feet, get your gun out before you really need it, because you will not have time to draw it.


Lastly, we need to keep in mind, that "just because you got the shot off, does not mean the fight is over, it only means it has begun" (Taylor).

This is not the movies where with one shot you hit the guy and he goes flying backwards. And this is not the movies where all your hits go COM and have effect. If someone is charging you with a knife and you get your handgun out and hit them....good for you, the fight has begun....guess what, they are not going to stop! Hit them again and again and again and they probably will still not stop unless you are really really lucky, or they DECIDE to stop. You are probably going to get cut up real bad if the guy really wants to get you, and that is the truth that has been impressed on law enforcement for a while now. Shooting someone with a handgun does NOT guarantee that they are going to stop in their tracks. Even with the heart obliterated, they still have enough oxygen in their system to keep going for at least 15 seconds, and guess how much damage someone can do to you with a knife in 15 seconds?

 
Remington 870 WingMaster because it's the all-time classic shotgun. It has interchangable barrels. I don't know if the Mossberg has interchangable barrels. I have an 870, 20" bbl. Imp. Cyl. choke. It's a retired "riot gun" from the Denver Police Dept. Dated 1982, it's as reliable as the day it came off the assy. line.

You can carry a firearm into a postoffice "for any lawful purpose" and that includes open carry (if lawful in your state) when you're hunting, fishing, etc. Same for federal facilities like US Forest Service. Always a NIX in courthouses or the Federal Office Bldgs downtown. That's why the guards and metal detectors are in place.

First choice is avoid or retreat. That's what's legally required in most states.

Second choice, a firearm. Let me quote the Oregon State Trooper when I asked him if he prefered his 1911 to a high capacity Glock: "The sidearm is only to cover my ass until I get back to the squad car and the long guns."

When "in the field" I have a lot of selections for a side arm. 357 or 1911 being the first two choices. But they're just to cover my ass until I get to the truck and the long guns -- Rem. 870 and SKS.

I don't want to use a knife for defense. Even though I'd rather be shot than stabbed or sliced. Gunshots don't hurt much. That slicing stuff will curl your toes!

With a firearm, I can dissuade. I can keep the jerks at a distance, and I can KILL them at a distance.

With a knife, any fool with a club, tire iron, or handgun will think he's an even match for you. And he may have an advantage.

I remember the scene with Indiana Jones against the Turk with the Scimitar . . . The Turk whips off these extended and elaborate knife moves, appearing very capable and menacing. Jones pulls out his Webley revolver and drops the guy with one shot from about 10 yards . . .

But my first choice is to run like hell.
 
Interesting topic, something which i can contribute in
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Anyway, where i live, crimes which involve guns are very rare compared to those which involve other types of weapons. I believe that using a knife as defense in Australia would probably be better for a couple of reasons.

1. a knife requires you to be 'up close and personal' with the offender, meaning that unless they have a gun (rare over here) they have to actually come over and threaten you. If they threaten you from 5 m away, you cannot respond with deadly force.

I am sure you understand my point, you cannot shoot a guy waving a stick at you from 5 metres, unless you want to go to jail of course heh

2. Handguns are illegal to carry here which sucks cos most hardcore criminals carry them anyway, so why shouldn't the public allowed to protect themselves by carrying a concealable self defense tool :P

Anyway, its best to prevent being around when trouble happens, but if it comes to you, i guess theres nothing wrong with being prepared.

Also, good point jedi knife, you have to be careful in a knife fight, I am sure that the street punks arnt the cleanest people in the world, sharing needles, unsafe sex blah blah blah. so getting their blood into you mightnt be a good idea.

And personally, i would prefer a handgun in most situations, the intimidation factor is up there with the swords and other big weapons.

Anyway, keep posting your opinions, i am sure a lot of us are interested in this type of topic and KEEP SAFE! hehe


Daniel
 
Used to carry a Glock 17, but due to new government restrictions i can't renew my permit anymore.
frown.gif


So now i just carry a knife wherever i go.
smile.gif
 
Originally posted by thaddeus:
"Yes, there are some people out there that can draw and hit in under a second. But, what kind of rigs are they using?"

There are quite a few concealment rigs that allow a very fast draw. The downside is that generally, the faster the rig, the less concealable. There are also practical shooting competitions that use stock guns and concealment holsters, and some of the posted times would shock you. On the other hand some people couldn't do it no matter what kind of rig they were wearing.

"Could they do it against a moving target?"

In this case the moving target is moving directly toward them right? We're not talking about shooting at the south end of a northbound cottontail in a thicket.

"I would wager that few people in the world could draw from concealment on the street and make the hit against a moving target with their carry gun."

In under a second? I agree.
I would also wager that equally few people are capable of drawing a knife while covering a distance of 7-10 yards in under a second, much less be trained well enough to use the knife once they got there.

"This is not the movies where with one shot you hit the guy and he goes flying backwards.....guess what, they are not going to stop!"

I agree that we are not guaranteed a center-mass hit, but have to point out again that this moving target is moving straight at us. Also, effective handgun calibers (.45 230gr. Hydra-shok, .357 mag. 125gr. JHP, .40 S&W 135gr. JHP +P, 9mm 115gr. +P+) have over 90% INSTANT one shot stop percentages in actual shootouts on the streets (these are "torso" numbers, not necessarily center mass). You're probably going to double-tap him anyway, right? Ever see a autopsy from a contact-distance gunshot wound? It'll make you think twice before saying that a knife is more effective even up close.

I think what it all comes down to regardless of which side of the argument you are on is training. Both types of weapons can be effective. It's up the person carrying them to make them effective, though.

I love knives. But the question was for a "primary" defensive weapon. That was the key word for me. If the question was for a back-up weapon for a "primary" handgun, and I had to choose between a second gun and a knife, one or the other, I would choose the knife.

btw, thaddeus, excellent points (though I played a little devil's advocate), but I think that for some reason people seem to think that though being a "gunslinger" requires a lot of training, that properly using a knife does not. I think that is a misconception, and a potentially dangerous one at that.
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I guess I consider my personnal self defense skills as my "Primary" defense weapon, i.e., my hands an feet. In a life or death situation even if you are the victim, be prepared to GO TO JAIL if you shoot someone, under any circumstance. If you have a CCW, which I myself hold several, you still will probably GO TO JAIL. If you stab, cut, or even pull a knife in a fight of any kind (and live), you will most likely GO TO JAIL. Some of you are saying "So what, as long as I'm alive". But consider the fact that you probably will be sued even if your dispute was justified. The legal sysem sucks today. I guess my point is "Get away as soon as possable. Carring a firearm for personal defense is smarter if you have the right paperwork, but a good knife really comes in handy. I carry both...

RW
 
First off I carry a G23 IWB Sidearmor rig, and I carry either my AutoStryker or EE Commander. I CAN draw both equally as fast, of course this also depends on my clothing. I have no doubt that a knife can be used as a defensive weapon. I do however believe that a .40 golden saber creates a much deeper/larger wound channel than most commonly carried tacticle folders. Now lets be clear on the fact that I understand that a 2 foot slice from nose to balls will create a huge unpleasant wound, but it does not have the traumatic impact that 350 foot pounds of expanding HP's do. Now you may be carrying a 6-8 inch long fixed blade and you plan on ramming into the BG as hard as you can then twisting it around a few times to equal the wound channel I "created" with my 23. So when all is said and done and anyone would like to practice from 7 yards on the draw moving running or playing hopscotch or whatever, you get the knife I get the G23. This is of course not to say that I carry my knives for opening letters, and I know how to employ a knife defensively and offensively, but If a knife was "good enough" in a combat/defensive situation then why don't we carry them to war? My opinion is "because we have guns," and in 20 years we will have a discusion on which is better "A Glock 23" or a "40megawatt Plasma Blaster" Both tools have a purpose both are just as easy to draw and use with practice both are very good defensive tools and I have lots of both. If I have a choice I'll leave you dead at the 7 yard mark even if i have to fire a full magazine at you to do it, and I can do it in under 3 seconds. then if only 10% of my rounds hit you and you still wanna go out it i'l reload and do it again (under 5 seconds) and if that doesnt do it I'll go ahead an oblige your knife with one of mine. :> All disclaimers apply I'm not out to test this with anyone unless you wanna use a training knive and i get to use my .68 cal Automag paintgun :>

Benchmade/Spyderco/Emerson/Glock23
VFW NRA

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Sappers Forward..
 
I guess in my excitment to opine on this topic, I left out one of the most important tools to bring to, or better, to avoid any lethal confrontation. The BRAIN and common sense. Without these we will lose no matter what other tools we may be armed with. IE: I left my brain behind when I started to theorize on this topic, therefor my reply was not as well thought out as it could have been. I will learn from this error as I alway try to do. Please try to find some life saving information in my mistake. If the think before you charge in rational can keep one of you folks alive in a fight, it is worth my losing face on this one.
recondoc
8404 Corpsman Up!! Answering the call for 120yrs.
Semper Fi

[This message has been edited by recondoc (edited 10-09-2000).]
 
Excellent points on all sides.

I really liked the thread that was linked, although Chris's comments could not be further from the truth (sounds like HCI emotional rhetoric with no factual basis).


On a side note:
Be careful before you put faith in the Marshal/Sanow (MS) figures that tell us that a handgun will stop someone %90+ of the time with one shot to the torso.

First, MS themselves say that their statistics are NOT meant to be used that way, but only to compare loads. They clearly say in their text that their data is NOT trying to convey that someone will go down %90 of the time with a single handgun wound.

The reasoning is, because their test parameters only measure a select group of people: the ones that take ONE hit (specifically to the torso).
Now, what do you do if someone does not go down with one hit? You shoot them again, right? Therefore, anyone that does not go down with one hit, gets shot again and does not fit the model parameters!
So, their statistic is NOT indicative of street shootings as a whole, they are an indication of a select group of shootings where the perp is shot once and only once. If you think about it long enough the parameters seem rather silly....only people shot once get counted, but most people that don't stop with one shot, get shot again! So, the model itself is kinda funny. It is tricky math, you gotta think about it.

The point of their research is to find out what bullet designs withing each caliber work best, and that is about as far as the research goes. Even at that, many serious ballisticians consider it a joke. Go to the firearms boards and bring it up and see the responses you get.

For the record, I am a gun lover, I have been shooting literally since I was 7 years old when I bought my first .22 from the money I earned by mowing lawns. I carry a Glock 30 almost 24/7. But, I have done a lot of research, and I understand the limitations of a handgun. First, they are very limited within contact range. Also, They actually make very unimpressive wounds compared to a rifle, and have very poor stopping power, and you will discover this if you put enough research into the topic. Most people stop from a handgun due to psychological reasons, not because they have to. And, I carry a gun for that reason among others. I don't care why someone stops, just that they do. The handgun is an excellent defensive weapon, and most people will cease their actions when they are facing one, but one needs to understand how ineffective it is so that one does not put too much faith in it.




[This message has been edited by thaddeus (edited 10-10-2000).]
 
I find guns by far not acceptable as weapons for carrying around. At least not for defense. Most defense weapons are only used at very close, near to bodycontact range. Weapons only make casulties. The best defense is
1. talk your way out of it,
2. run like hell,
3. try to get help,
4. give in - usually they only want your wallet
5. try to fight your way out of it,
6. kill opponent.

99.9 percent of all assaults end before yout can get to six. And no-one - I mean this - can kill someone with his weapon(s) or hands and wake up the next morning like nothing happened.
I found that my fists and my kickbox training are more then enough to get the message to the criminal in question to back off. And I always carry an endura.
Once, when I was pretty drunk and heading in a major bar-fight, I pulled my endura, but only to trow it away so I couldn't kill anyone. Afterwards, a surrounding bystander gave it back.

greetz, bart.

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"If the world wouldn't SUCK, we'd all fall off !"

member of the BKS
http://www.expage.com/belgianknives
 
I agree if it is at all possible, avoid the situation. I believe most posts are listed are understood to be an immediate life or death situation requiring some form of intervention on your part to save your or SO's life. If I can get away with just losing my wallet or car because I could not forsee a pontential problem and take action before hand I would feel lucky. I'm of the belief that defense is for your life, top priority.
 
Gun or knife as primary defense weapon?
A gun of course!
In our society we have to make compromises, sometimes you cannot carry a firearm for legal and other reasons, sometimes you cannot even carry a knife.
But if you had a crystal ball and it showed that you would be attacked tomorrow (but you don't know where or when), I'll bet you would want a firearm. In fact, you would probably want a high-capacity rifle or shotgun.
But since we don't know when we might be attacked and we can't practically tote around a rifle or shotgun all the time, we must compromise.
I don't believe a knife is even close to the best self-defense weapon but it is a good compromise and it's easy to carry and useful for other tasks.
So, the firearm is best IF there is a really good chance you may be attacked (that's why cops carry them).
 
But if you had a crystal ball and it showed that you would be attacked tomorrow (but you don't know where or when), I'll bet you would want a firearm. In fact, you would probably want a high-capacity rifle or shotgun.
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I would find out where I was going to be attacked and be anywhere but there.

For those of you that want to "reach out and touch someone" at twenty yards, how do you defend yourself against that? How do you explain in court (expect it) that you were in danger of "immediate bodily harm" at 60 feet or more away? I think the instances of this scenario are rare indeed.

If you want to carry, I support you. However, consider this scenario. How many of you can say honestly that you can hit a moving target, accurately, under stress of "immediate bodily harm" at more than 20 yards %100 percent of the time? It better be 100% of the time because the family in the house, or coffe shop or whatever else is behind your target won't appreciate the "BIG HOLE" your custom .45 will make.

That is why (even though I lawfully can)I don't carry a concealed handgun. Although, you can bet that I have a knife.
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When you strap on that gun you are strapping on a lot of responsibility. To the same extent we do the same with a knife. I feel that in a legitimate attack with no peaceful way out, my knife will serve me adequately. If some one gets me from twenty yards away, then it must have been my time.

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EXCUSE ME WHILE I WHIP THIS OUT.
**Blazing Saddles**

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[This message has been edited by aflatfoot (edited 10-10-2000).]
 
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