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Gun or knife as primary defense weapon??
- Thread starter hopethisisnttaken
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 21, 1999
- Messages
- 8
Our friend in Belgium is quite the optimist:
1. Talk your way out of it (We are addressing the times when you CAN'T talk your way out of it)
2. Run like hell (I am too old and disabled to run faster than the average gang of criminals, but maybe it works for you?)
3. Try to get help (This is a funny one. Who are you going to ask for help? Probably someone who planned ahead and is carrying a gun. Why not just carry your own help yourself? I am not willing to bet my life on someone else jumping in to help me out. Most people will just stand there helplessly and watch you get beat to death, because they didn't plan for this either.)
4. Give in, they usually only want your wallet (I don't know about your part of the globe, but over here, they take your wallet and then they kill you for fun. Or they rape you. They want more than your wallet. I am not willing to throw myself on the mercy of the criminals.)
5. Try to fight your way out of it (Exactly, and I want to be as well armed as the criminals. No law yet has been able to ensure that criminals are not armed. As soon as I am guaranteed that all criminals will be unarmed and only attack me one at a time, then I will go out unarmed as well.)
6. Kill opponent (God I hope not to have to, but will if necessary).
As far as throwing your knife away while entering a fight, that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard, and it explains why you would not want to carry a gun. If you do not trust yourself not to get angry and shoot someone, then you are best off without a gun. I know that I will never do that. That is a question each person can only asnwer for themselves.
Where I live, you would get that knife returned to you in the form of having it stabbed into your back by a bystander while you were fighting. That is a fact. But, then again, I don't strap on a weapon and then go get drunk in public, and jump into a fistfight. That is part of my responsibility.
Not meaning to pick on you, but I just don't understand your train of thought. I guess things are just different here in the States?
1. Talk your way out of it (We are addressing the times when you CAN'T talk your way out of it)
2. Run like hell (I am too old and disabled to run faster than the average gang of criminals, but maybe it works for you?)
3. Try to get help (This is a funny one. Who are you going to ask for help? Probably someone who planned ahead and is carrying a gun. Why not just carry your own help yourself? I am not willing to bet my life on someone else jumping in to help me out. Most people will just stand there helplessly and watch you get beat to death, because they didn't plan for this either.)
4. Give in, they usually only want your wallet (I don't know about your part of the globe, but over here, they take your wallet and then they kill you for fun. Or they rape you. They want more than your wallet. I am not willing to throw myself on the mercy of the criminals.)
5. Try to fight your way out of it (Exactly, and I want to be as well armed as the criminals. No law yet has been able to ensure that criminals are not armed. As soon as I am guaranteed that all criminals will be unarmed and only attack me one at a time, then I will go out unarmed as well.)
6. Kill opponent (God I hope not to have to, but will if necessary).
As far as throwing your knife away while entering a fight, that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard, and it explains why you would not want to carry a gun. If you do not trust yourself not to get angry and shoot someone, then you are best off without a gun. I know that I will never do that. That is a question each person can only asnwer for themselves.
Where I live, you would get that knife returned to you in the form of having it stabbed into your back by a bystander while you were fighting. That is a fact. But, then again, I don't strap on a weapon and then go get drunk in public, and jump into a fistfight. That is part of my responsibility.
Not meaning to pick on you, but I just don't understand your train of thought. I guess things are just different here in the States?
Shooting someone from a distance is not really hard to defend in court IF you really were in danger and could not avoid the person. The police do it quite often and we have the same right to self defense as they have. Heck, sometimes the shoot someone 20 yards away because they "thought" he had a weapon.
What's best will depend upon the compromises that you're willing to make for the situations that you expect to be in. For most I'll assume that they can't carry a firearm wherever they wish to so a knife might make sense, but if you're expecting trouble and for some reason can't avoid it, like you should usually try to do, a firearm makes sense. As a backup a smaller firearm is often used. In basic I seem to recall a couple of half days of close combat training, some of which involved using a knife, a couple of half days of bayonet practice, compared to one week snapping in with the rifle, one week on the rifle range, and a few days of live fire in infantry training. One also spent at least one week a year qualifying with the T/O weapon, which for most was a rifle.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 2,395
Very few honest people live lives of such extreme intrigue and danger that they need to carry a weapon at all. A knife, on the other hand, is a handy tool to have around, and a lot of people benefit from always having one with them. So why not learn to use the defensive tool that you are most likely and practically going to carry every day, a knife?
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2000
- Messages
- 14
I hope that you mean libertian and not a liberal. One does mean personal rights and one means your rights are controlled by the goverment. Other than that you made some interesting points.
- Joined
- May 1, 2000
- Messages
- 2,259
I think a gun beats a knife. I also think you'd be dumb to go out without a knife. Guns have much more of an intimidation factor, which will end a lot of confrontations right there. A knife is much less likely to save your ass as soon as your opponent sees it.
A lot of you are saying that most people can't draw their gun fast enough to use it when they will need it, but can you draw your knife that much faster than your gun? I don't think so.
I think of it this way, I would rather be attacked with a knife than a gun. A knife has to be used at very close distance, you want your attacker to be as far from your person as possible. If someone comes at you with a knife, you have a fighting chance even unarmed. If someone with a gun wants you dead, your only chance is to have your own gun. This, of course, assumes that your attacker with a gun is smart enough not to get within grabbing distance, something you have to do with a knife but not a gun.
Range weapons beat out contact weapons every time, because the range weapon can be used at a distance that makes the contact weapon useless. Think about it, at 20 ft, your knife is good for maybe a little bit of intimidation value, that's it. At 20 ft. your gun is lethal.
It's true that knives don't jam or run out of ammo, and a gun only shoots in one direction, but few knife wounds are immediately disabling, and few gun wounds can be ignored even for a few seconds. How many times have you been cut with a knife and still been able to function close to 100%, at least for a little while? How many of you have been shot and been able to ignore it for a few minutes while you handled something more urgent than your wound?
I don't underestimate the potential of a knife, I carry several every day, and I don't carry a gun because a CCW in CA is about as common as a lion on Market St. But if I were to need to defend myself, I would choose a gun over a knife any day.
I wouldn't say "don't bring a knife to a gunfight," I would say, "bring a knife and a gun to a gunfight, knife fight, and everywhere else you go.
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Jason aka medusaoblongata
-----------------------
"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"
- Zarathustra
A lot of you are saying that most people can't draw their gun fast enough to use it when they will need it, but can you draw your knife that much faster than your gun? I don't think so.
I think of it this way, I would rather be attacked with a knife than a gun. A knife has to be used at very close distance, you want your attacker to be as far from your person as possible. If someone comes at you with a knife, you have a fighting chance even unarmed. If someone with a gun wants you dead, your only chance is to have your own gun. This, of course, assumes that your attacker with a gun is smart enough not to get within grabbing distance, something you have to do with a knife but not a gun.
Range weapons beat out contact weapons every time, because the range weapon can be used at a distance that makes the contact weapon useless. Think about it, at 20 ft, your knife is good for maybe a little bit of intimidation value, that's it. At 20 ft. your gun is lethal.
It's true that knives don't jam or run out of ammo, and a gun only shoots in one direction, but few knife wounds are immediately disabling, and few gun wounds can be ignored even for a few seconds. How many times have you been cut with a knife and still been able to function close to 100%, at least for a little while? How many of you have been shot and been able to ignore it for a few minutes while you handled something more urgent than your wound?
I don't underestimate the potential of a knife, I carry several every day, and I don't carry a gun because a CCW in CA is about as common as a lion on Market St. But if I were to need to defend myself, I would choose a gun over a knife any day.
I wouldn't say "don't bring a knife to a gunfight," I would say, "bring a knife and a gun to a gunfight, knife fight, and everywhere else you go.
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Jason aka medusaoblongata
-----------------------
"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"
- Zarathustra
- Joined
- Nov 17, 1999
- Messages
- 676
Yep, you people in the states do not know how it goes over here in europe.
The people who would like to rob you, are not real criminals, but criminal-wannabees. They cannot carry a gun, unless they planned to hit you a few days in advance. Handguns are only to be used by cops over here, NO-ONE else has the right to carry them. So, for a regular in the street criminal, it is stupid to carry a gun. At any occasion were you'll be searched, you'll be arrested and locked away for a few years for illegal weapons.
And, the cops here in Belgium know all too well who is a criminal or not. The are divided in so smal juristictions that they really know each criminals name.
A worst-case-scenario is when an attacker comes walking slowly at you and pulls a knife. If he pulls a gun, he's probably a paid hitman or a member of organized crime and your time is up. But that happens 5 times in one year on 11.000.000 people.
Most robberies happen in group, whithout the use of weapons. As I said, if you're dealing with a really bad criminal, he'll be carrying a knife, no more, no less.
The fact that I trew the knife away (I was surrounded by my friends) when I was heading in a barfight, was for two reasons:
1. I don't need a knife to defend my ass when only two people are looking for trouble.
2. I wanted to intimidate them.
I weight 105 kilo's (210 pounds), 1m85 high(5.5 feet), trained in kickboxing and ju-jutsi (martial-arts, also with weapons).
I am not afraid off a few thugs who are after my wallet. The better be good or I'll kick there butts.
And if I see a gun showing up, it's either my time or someone made a big mistake, because i am not that important, I am not wealthy, and I never carry more money in my wallet then I need. What are banks for otherwise?
I don't have a car (use the bus, train, bike and foot to go where i need to go), I don't have a house. I run 100 m in 12 seconds flat
I was the highschool champion at this atletic genre of sports.
You see, for me, in this country, it would be helpfull to have a shotgun or the likes in my house, for premessis defense, but on the streets, a knife is the best weapon worth the penalty when they catch you with it.
I carry an endura, while I am quit aware that when i am searched (small chance, I am not known to cops ,don't look like a criminal and do nothing illegal) I will lose the knife, and need to pay about $2300 USD fine, or go to jail for a month, and when I leave jail, they will search me much faster, as they know my face then.
statistics: 2100 robberies each year, 232 go unsolved. about 3000 rape a year, 1000 go unsolved and most of the time, not reported.
105 people get killed in Belgium every year, mostly older guys in criminal enviroment.
greetz, Bart.
------------------
"If the world wouldn't SUCK, we'd all fall off !"
member of the BKS
http://www.expage.com/belgianknives
The people who would like to rob you, are not real criminals, but criminal-wannabees. They cannot carry a gun, unless they planned to hit you a few days in advance. Handguns are only to be used by cops over here, NO-ONE else has the right to carry them. So, for a regular in the street criminal, it is stupid to carry a gun. At any occasion were you'll be searched, you'll be arrested and locked away for a few years for illegal weapons.
And, the cops here in Belgium know all too well who is a criminal or not. The are divided in so smal juristictions that they really know each criminals name.
A worst-case-scenario is when an attacker comes walking slowly at you and pulls a knife. If he pulls a gun, he's probably a paid hitman or a member of organized crime and your time is up. But that happens 5 times in one year on 11.000.000 people.
Most robberies happen in group, whithout the use of weapons. As I said, if you're dealing with a really bad criminal, he'll be carrying a knife, no more, no less.
The fact that I trew the knife away (I was surrounded by my friends) when I was heading in a barfight, was for two reasons:
1. I don't need a knife to defend my ass when only two people are looking for trouble.
2. I wanted to intimidate them.
I weight 105 kilo's (210 pounds), 1m85 high(5.5 feet), trained in kickboxing and ju-jutsi (martial-arts, also with weapons).
I am not afraid off a few thugs who are after my wallet. The better be good or I'll kick there butts.
And if I see a gun showing up, it's either my time or someone made a big mistake, because i am not that important, I am not wealthy, and I never carry more money in my wallet then I need. What are banks for otherwise?
I don't have a car (use the bus, train, bike and foot to go where i need to go), I don't have a house. I run 100 m in 12 seconds flat
I was the highschool champion at this atletic genre of sports.
You see, for me, in this country, it would be helpfull to have a shotgun or the likes in my house, for premessis defense, but on the streets, a knife is the best weapon worth the penalty when they catch you with it.
I carry an endura, while I am quit aware that when i am searched (small chance, I am not known to cops ,don't look like a criminal and do nothing illegal) I will lose the knife, and need to pay about $2300 USD fine, or go to jail for a month, and when I leave jail, they will search me much faster, as they know my face then.
statistics: 2100 robberies each year, 232 go unsolved. about 3000 rape a year, 1000 go unsolved and most of the time, not reported.
105 people get killed in Belgium every year, mostly older guys in criminal enviroment.
greetz, Bart.
------------------
"If the world wouldn't SUCK, we'd all fall off !"
member of the BKS
http://www.expage.com/belgianknives
- Joined
- Nov 21, 1999
- Messages
- 8
Very interesting, Bart.
What we need to do over here is to award STIFF penalties to criminals that use weapons in crimes. Make them scared enough that they decide it is more profitable to do their deeds without misusing weapons. I don't know about you all, but we are way too soft on violent criminals here. Our number one problem is REPEAT OFFENDERS: guys that have a record, go to jail for a short sentence and then get out and commit more crime. They progress to worse crimes and end up killing people in the end. Then, we might finally lock them up for good, after it is too late. If we could stop repeat offenders (hardcore lifestyle criminals) then we would have almost no crime. Somewhere on the order of %90 of our murders are commited by people with three or more arrests. These people should not be out on the street in the first place.
Like Steve Harvey said, if you live a clean life you probably will not have a problem here.
But, on the other hand, there is still that chance, and good innocent people are victimized every day, even though their odds were low.
I have fire insurance on my home, four smoke detectors and a fire extinguisher in my kitchen even though statistical odds are VERY LOW that I will have a fire.
I put on my seatbelt everytime I get in the car and have insurance even though the odds are VERY slim that I will get in a serious auto accident.
The odds are low I will be involved in a serious crime, but on the other hand, almost every innocent victim of crime says afterward "I never thought it would happen to me". I prepare ahead for the event, even though the odds are slim. And, the odds must be high enough because I lead a very clean life, but I have had to use my gun to stop a murderous criminal.
My gun has saved my life more times than my seatbelt, and I still strap on each one every day, with low odds that I will need either.
It doesn't matter how low the statistical odds are for everyone as a whole...when it is happening to you, they just went to %100 for YOU.
"Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it."
[This message has been edited by DerGlockenpooper (edited 10-13-2000).]
What we need to do over here is to award STIFF penalties to criminals that use weapons in crimes. Make them scared enough that they decide it is more profitable to do their deeds without misusing weapons. I don't know about you all, but we are way too soft on violent criminals here. Our number one problem is REPEAT OFFENDERS: guys that have a record, go to jail for a short sentence and then get out and commit more crime. They progress to worse crimes and end up killing people in the end. Then, we might finally lock them up for good, after it is too late. If we could stop repeat offenders (hardcore lifestyle criminals) then we would have almost no crime. Somewhere on the order of %90 of our murders are commited by people with three or more arrests. These people should not be out on the street in the first place.
Like Steve Harvey said, if you live a clean life you probably will not have a problem here.
But, on the other hand, there is still that chance, and good innocent people are victimized every day, even though their odds were low.
I have fire insurance on my home, four smoke detectors and a fire extinguisher in my kitchen even though statistical odds are VERY LOW that I will have a fire.
I put on my seatbelt everytime I get in the car and have insurance even though the odds are VERY slim that I will get in a serious auto accident.
The odds are low I will be involved in a serious crime, but on the other hand, almost every innocent victim of crime says afterward "I never thought it would happen to me". I prepare ahead for the event, even though the odds are slim. And, the odds must be high enough because I lead a very clean life, but I have had to use my gun to stop a murderous criminal.
My gun has saved my life more times than my seatbelt, and I still strap on each one every day, with low odds that I will need either.
It doesn't matter how low the statistical odds are for everyone as a whole...when it is happening to you, they just went to %100 for YOU.
"Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it."
[This message has been edited by DerGlockenpooper (edited 10-13-2000).]
- Joined
- Nov 17, 1999
- Messages
- 676
DerGlockenpooper, I couldn't agree more.
But what is a big penalty for a crime?
Over here, carrying an illegal gun will be about 5 years in prison, lose the gun and a serious fine (I believe 500.000 fr or $12.500 USD).
A crime commited with a illegal weapon is automatically murder first degree (with ahead planning and intention to kill). That'll be 10 to 20 years, depending if you actually killed anyone.
For worse crimes (I try not to think about what that would be) penalties over here are all the same. Live-long inprisonment, translated that's 25 years. Longer imprisonement is not possible.
There was quit some trouble over here when the cops arrested Dutroux, a childmolester who raped and killed at least 12 children.
He's in for 25 years as well.
I think people like that can be executed, and I know a whole lot of officers who would love to do that.
greetz, Bart
------------------
"If the world wouldn't SUCK, we'd all fall off !"
member of the BKS
http://www.expage.com/belgianknives
But what is a big penalty for a crime?
Over here, carrying an illegal gun will be about 5 years in prison, lose the gun and a serious fine (I believe 500.000 fr or $12.500 USD).
A crime commited with a illegal weapon is automatically murder first degree (with ahead planning and intention to kill). That'll be 10 to 20 years, depending if you actually killed anyone.
For worse crimes (I try not to think about what that would be) penalties over here are all the same. Live-long inprisonment, translated that's 25 years. Longer imprisonement is not possible.
There was quit some trouble over here when the cops arrested Dutroux, a childmolester who raped and killed at least 12 children.
He's in for 25 years as well.
I think people like that can be executed, and I know a whole lot of officers who would love to do that.
greetz, Bart
------------------
"If the world wouldn't SUCK, we'd all fall off !"
member of the BKS
http://www.expage.com/belgianknives
Originally posted by Steve Harvey:
Very few honest people live lives of such extreme intrigue and danger that they need to carry a weapon at all.
That's very true. There is also an old saying that goes "it's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it". That's true, too.
Just saw that last post. The gun control laws suck, but stiff penalties are what we need more of over here. How about a mandatory death penalty for drug dealers, rapists, child molesters, murderers (and yuppies who swerve around in the speed lane at 10mph under the speed limit, oblivious to the two mile line of traffic stacked up behind them while they chatter mindlessly on their cell phone-sorry had to vent)?
[This message has been edited by Owen (edited 10-14-2000).]
Up here in Canada it is quite impossible to carry a handgun around. Therefore not to many people have guns and we don't worry about looking down the barrel of one to often.
I carry my knife (Socomm Elite) as a tool first and as a weapon second. If you carry a knife as a weapon then mentally you have to be ready to take someones life away. If your not then in my opinion don't carry one. I didn't carry one for a while because of this reason but opening those packages with my keys drove me crazy
Here in Canada where guns are less common then in the States I think I would prefer a blunt weapon like an ASP Baton or flashlight. I could give the bad guy " the business " but not kill him. (Although hopefully I wounldn't hesitate if I really had to).
DerGlockenpooper - I have seen that video "Surviving the edge weapon" quite an eye opener.
Against a gun - "Here's my wallet, my money... can I keep my knife ?? "
Against a knife - Run, then fight. Part of some of the training that I did which include knife tactics was to arm yourself with a magic marker. Similarly arm your son, nephew or your neighbours 5 year old with a marker as well. Have the 5 year old wave the marker around and try to touch you with it, guaranteed afterward both you and the five year old will be covered with marker.
TornAdo
I carry my knife (Socomm Elite) as a tool first and as a weapon second. If you carry a knife as a weapon then mentally you have to be ready to take someones life away. If your not then in my opinion don't carry one. I didn't carry one for a while because of this reason but opening those packages with my keys drove me crazy
Here in Canada where guns are less common then in the States I think I would prefer a blunt weapon like an ASP Baton or flashlight. I could give the bad guy " the business " but not kill him. (Although hopefully I wounldn't hesitate if I really had to).
DerGlockenpooper - I have seen that video "Surviving the edge weapon" quite an eye opener.
Against a gun - "Here's my wallet, my money... can I keep my knife ?? "
Against a knife - Run, then fight. Part of some of the training that I did which include knife tactics was to arm yourself with a magic marker. Similarly arm your son, nephew or your neighbours 5 year old with a marker as well. Have the 5 year old wave the marker around and try to touch you with it, guaranteed afterward both you and the five year old will be covered with marker.
TornAdo
A non-lethal effective alternative to firearms or knives is a decent pepper spray. Guns and Ammo looked at non-lethal means of defense a few years back and like myself was wary of sprays. I've had cans of Mace emptied on me before and it didn't slow me down at all, and while the tear gas concentration in the chamber during basic was high enough to sting exposed skin and was definately uncomfortable, it wasn't debilitating. Pepper spray is different. The Guns and Ammo staff had a large firearms instructor simulate a confrontation against someone with pepper spray in their pocket, the instructor didn't even get his weapon drawn and took almost 30 minutes to recover. My brother had his ex try some pepper spray om him, with him smulating an attack, and he said that it was instantly incapacitating and that it took about 20 to 30 minutes to recover.
An advantge with pepper spray is that one can project force at a distance. Downsides are doing something stupid like spraying oneself, using either wimpy or old spray which can be much less than effective, a small percentage of situations can still result in death, and it's not legal in all areas. It's also not 100% effective, but nothing else is either, and carrying pepper spray will probably draw more sympathy in an illegal situation than a big knife and definately a firearm.
An advantge with pepper spray is that one can project force at a distance. Downsides are doing something stupid like spraying oneself, using either wimpy or old spray which can be much less than effective, a small percentage of situations can still result in death, and it's not legal in all areas. It's also not 100% effective, but nothing else is either, and carrying pepper spray will probably draw more sympathy in an illegal situation than a big knife and definately a firearm.
- Joined
- Nov 21, 1999
- Messages
- 8
I have grown to really love pepper spray.
I have no hesitation to use it (I have a LOT of hesitation drawing a gun or knife, but I feel okay pulling pepper spray and even using it to repel dogs or agressive people). You just can't go around pulling out or "brandishing" a gun or knife, but at this point in our society, pepper spray is a very acceptable repellent.
If you get "caught" with it, it is generally not even frowned upon.
It is also cheap.
I just wish someone would make a flat can with a clip on it, about the size of a folding knife. Most of the cans are rather hard to carry because they are round cylindars. Not good in a pocket. But, I carry it everywhere anyway.
As a side note, I have done a bit of research on this, and if you are looking for pepper spray, look at the SHU (Scoville Heat Units) to tell you how effective it is.
The "Percentage" (%) that is so often advertised is not important. Cheap companies will brag about how their OC pepper spray is "XX%" but that means nothing about how effective it is. The "percentage" basically tells you how LONG it will affect the person, not how well it will affect the person. In fact, optimally you want a LOW percentage and a HIGH SHU for the most hitting power, without risk of killing someone.
The "SHU" is what tells you how HOT it is. Some people will shrug off the cheaper pepper sprays. Do your research and get some good stuff. I won't carry anything under 2 million SHU, and the stuff I prefer is 5.3 million SHU. OUCH! That will knock even the meanest person on their ass!!
I get this info directly from cops and from prison guards who spray really really mean people on a daily basis, so I feel confident passing it along as "good info".
I have no hesitation to use it (I have a LOT of hesitation drawing a gun or knife, but I feel okay pulling pepper spray and even using it to repel dogs or agressive people). You just can't go around pulling out or "brandishing" a gun or knife, but at this point in our society, pepper spray is a very acceptable repellent.
If you get "caught" with it, it is generally not even frowned upon.
It is also cheap.
I just wish someone would make a flat can with a clip on it, about the size of a folding knife. Most of the cans are rather hard to carry because they are round cylindars. Not good in a pocket. But, I carry it everywhere anyway.
As a side note, I have done a bit of research on this, and if you are looking for pepper spray, look at the SHU (Scoville Heat Units) to tell you how effective it is.
The "Percentage" (%) that is so often advertised is not important. Cheap companies will brag about how their OC pepper spray is "XX%" but that means nothing about how effective it is. The "percentage" basically tells you how LONG it will affect the person, not how well it will affect the person. In fact, optimally you want a LOW percentage and a HIGH SHU for the most hitting power, without risk of killing someone.
The "SHU" is what tells you how HOT it is. Some people will shrug off the cheaper pepper sprays. Do your research and get some good stuff. I won't carry anything under 2 million SHU, and the stuff I prefer is 5.3 million SHU. OUCH! That will knock even the meanest person on their ass!!
I get this info directly from cops and from prison guards who spray really really mean people on a daily basis, so I feel confident passing it along as "good info".
To Comrade Chang: I would go with the 870. The ships I have been on in the last 17 years have issued both Mossbergs & Remingtons and I have seen more broken Mossbergs then Remingtons. Mossbergs do not cycle as smoothly as Remingtons. By the way, I have also personnally owned both brands, so I speak from that standpoint as well. Also, if you pick up a Mossberg, you are mostly stuck with the factory magazine capicity, with the Remington, it is not a problem to install a 2-3 shot extended magazine tube and spring. Now, some newer Remington 870s are dimpled at the end of the stock tube to preclude installation of an extended magazine, so check it out if that is a factor for you.
I am stationed overseas now, and cannot carry or own a firearm of any type (Italy), but back home, I carried (along with my CT CCW permit), a NAA Guardian in .32 acp (silvertips) or a S&W 640 in .38 spl (Corbon +P+s). I also always had my Spyderco Police Model in my right front pocket.
I would MUCH rather have my model 640 in my hand if needed, then my Police Model.
I am stationed overseas now, and cannot carry or own a firearm of any type (Italy), but back home, I carried (along with my CT CCW permit), a NAA Guardian in .32 acp (silvertips) or a S&W 640 in .38 spl (Corbon +P+s). I also always had my Spyderco Police Model in my right front pocket.
I would MUCH rather have my model 640 in my hand if needed, then my Police Model.