GW3 - Glue Wars 3 - What do you want in a knife adhesive?

T

tmickley

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Apr 4, 2001
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There is interest from a qualified company to design some adhesives specifically for the cutlery industry to meet our needs in knife making.

I have already tested and rejected one adhesive. After a couple conversations with this companies owners and their main chemist, they are sending me some new adhesives to test. They also have a couple of other adhesives that are new technology that sound very promising.

If we all could have 3 to 5 adhesives that would be specifically designed to meet the needs of knife makers - what would you want to see in those adhesives?

Some things to consider.

  • What features are must have, what features would be nice to have?
  • What kind of end user package is best for your needs?
  • What kind of minimum performance needs do you have?
  • What part of the process(es) in knife fabrication could be improved by a specific adhesive?
  • What kind of pot life and fixture times do you want? (what if you could adjust the pot life and fixture time for each batch?)
  • What kind of joint gaps would need to be targeted?
  • What would be minimum and maximum temps?
  • What kind of solvent resistance is absolute must have?
  • What viscosity is best for you?

The reality is if it can't be profitable for this company, they can't make it for us. It is in our interest to see something like this get off the ground. For those of you with experience in marketing:

  • What is the market demographic?
  • How do you reach it?
  • What is the market size in dollars and what kind of share is there to be had?
  • How do you best position the product?
  • Is there adjacent niche markets that can be piggybacked onto a line like this?
What else?

my email is: tracy@usakms.com if some one wants to comment "off line".
 
tmickley said:
  • What is the market demographic?
  • How do you reach it?
  • What is the market size in dollars and what kind of share is there to be had?
  • How do you best position the product?
  • Is there adjacent niche markets that can be piggybacked onto a line like this?
What else?

my email is: tracy@usakms.com if some one wants to comment "off line".
Click to expand...

To start with the simple stuff, Walmart, Lowes, etc, are not the place to be, but rather usaknifemaker.com, knifekits.com, etc. If I'm going to buy a specialty adhesive, it's only going to be when I'm putting in an order for belts, etc. Not separately.

Or in other words, how does Norton target us with 2x72 belts? Whatever they're doing, copy that. :)


Re: adjacent niche markets, if they could come up with something to replace solder that I can squirt out of a tube, I'd be all over it. Soldering guards on, what a pain. But nothing else gets you a joint that's shiny and matches the same way. You got a glue that LOOKS and WORKS like solder? Ill buy it.

Just a couple first thoughts. :thumbup:
Mike
 
Something that bonds a variety of materials like superglue but had the durability and shock resistance of a good 24 hour epoxy, can be applied from a single bottle like Gorilla glue and sets in 3-5 hours.
 
MSCantrell said:
To start with the simple stuff, Walmart, Lowes, etc, are not the place to be, but rather usaknifemaker.com, knifekits.com, etc. If I'm going to buy a specialty adhesive, it's only going to be when I'm putting in an order for belts, etc. Not separately.

Or in other words, how does Norton target us with 2x72 belts? Whatever they're doing, copy that. :)


Re: adjacent niche markets, if they could come up with something to replace solder that I can squirt out of a tube, I'd be all over it. Soldering guards on, what a pain. But nothing else gets you a joint that's shiny and matches the same way. You got a glue that LOOKS and WORKS like solder? Ill buy it.

Just a couple first thoughts. :thumbup:
Mike
Click to expand...

these won't be going mass market, pure niche at this point.

shiny metal looking sealer epoxy is good I think.
 
I think to niche market it the name or description should include knife or knife makers.

To position the product it would be a good idea for as many popular makers to try it and endorse it. I am in the beginnings of learning to make knives and I read several forums and ask questions. If more than one maker endorses the adhesive I am going to try it.

As far as the product itself I'll leave to those who can actually make a good looking knife.
 
How bout good metal on metal bonding and shear strength, stability after curing in extreme temps, hell, even stability in the bottle in a hot workshop, maybe a 30min cure time (5min could be too fast and 2 hours is too long) physical flexibility and dimensional stability (no shrinking or expanding). How's that for starters?

Two part or one part, that really does not bother me. one part adhesive would be nice but I do not mind mixing adhesive...
 
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It would be nice if they could formulate one that cleans up its own mess...... ;)
 
I don't know if this is even possible, but an epoxy that can withstand very high heats after setting, and can hold up with quite a bit of abuse. That way we wouldn't HAVE to use pins, but just the epoxy would work.
 
Heat-resistance up to maybe 300F would be nice. Yes, we tell people not to put knives in the dishwasher, but you know some will anyway.
 
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69_knives said:
Something that bonds a variety of materials like superglue but had the durability and shock resistance of a good 24 hour epoxy, can be applied from a single bottle like Gorilla glue and sets in 3-5 hours.
Click to expand...

Yes:D That sounds great. Also, several differant colors of dye formulated to work with the epoxy so there is no loss of all these wonderful features.
 
James_Terrio said:
Heat-resistance up to maybe 300F would be nice. Yes, we tell people not to put knives in the dishwasher, but you know some will anyway.
Click to expand...
A dishwasher that will pull 300 degrees, man? That's autoclave territory. None of the adhesives I use will fail with repeated washings, but some of the natural handle materials I use might.

Seems like any of the stuff I use fits the bill for my applications, but I also know that none of it (with the exception of the Loctite Speedbonder series - available from Tracy) is sold to consumers.
 
The naturally durable woods we use tend to be oily, fine grained and non absorbent (pretty hard to glue) so an adhesive that is surface insensitive is very important.

Several years ago I messed with some fancy stuff to bond a metallocene olefin to ABS. The stuff we used was supposed to be able to bond Turcite to steel, and adhere to UHMW and even Teflon.

We also found a CA that didn't loose its bond to EPDM with a high paraffin content.

These are things that tar won't stick to.

These adhesives exist, but they're not readily available to small users.
 
I have had epoxy fail in the dish washer - and that was a high performance 24 hr 4:1 epoxy

My priorities:

1: outstanding adhesion to most materials
2: stability over time, I want the glue to be holding 100 years from now.
3: performance in prolonged wet/dry
4: performance in hot/cold
5: Resistance to shock
6: 20-30 min working time so I can do one, or a batch of five (I think most volume users will agree)
7: thick enough it doesn't run everywhere
8: mostly clear so the line doesn't show
9: able to work with a gap range of .003-.030


I don't care about:

1: ultimate strength
2: one part or two
3: moderate yellowing
4: cost (within reason)
 
the dishwasher killed most adhesives in the glue wars. i told the chemist it had to pass the dishwater test - period.

keep 'em comin...good comments so far.

My thoughts so far:
I think viscosity about the same as chocolate pudding really seems to work well.
Pot life of 20 minutes. 80% cure in 4 hours, full cure 24 hours for one option.
Pot life of 10 minutes, 80% cure in 1 hour, full cure 24 hours for another option.

What about unlimited pot life but it would have a fixture time (defined here as the amount of time needed to be clamped) of 3 to 5 minutes. This much like the Speedbonder stuff. It's very handy when you are in a hurry but you damn well be ready to assemble everything quick!

A nice to have would be it could be thinned down with something to make it less viscous so you could make mosaic pins.

It would take a dye and have specifically tested dyes available.

-60F to +275F temp range

resistance to thermal cycling

less than perfect surface prep is needed.
 
tmickley said:
What about unlimited pot life but it would have a fixture time (defined here as the amount of time needed to be clamped) of 3 to 5 minutes.
Click to expand...

Do you mean like once it's exposed to air you only have 3-5 minutes? I don't think I would like that. I don't mind mixing up a 2-part as needed, but I'm trying to get to a point where I have 4-6 blades ready to assemble at a time. I don't mind letting them cure for 24 hours, either. I always have something else to keep me busy in the meantime.

Shiny metal looking... would it be possible to mix in some metal powder with it?
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
I have had epoxy fail in the dish washer - and that was a high performance 24 hr 4:1 epoxy

My priorities:

1: outstanding adhesion to most materials
2: stability over time, I want the glue to be holding 100 years from now.
3: performance in prolonged wet/dry
4: performance in hot/cold
5: Resistance to shock
6: 20-30 min working time so I can do one, or a batch of five (I think most volume users will agree)
7: thick enough it doesn't run everywhere
8: mostly clear so the line doesn't show
9: able to work with a gap range of .003-.030


I don't care about:

1: ultimate strength
2: one part or two
3: moderate yellowing
4: cost (within reason)
Click to expand...

I would agree with everything here but would like to add that it would also be nice to have someway to thin it and still have all of the properties and could pour it into a hidden tang handle. Maybe instead of thinning another glue that would do all and still be thin for use in hidden tangs. Either way.
 
tmickley said:
the dishwasher killed most adhesives in the glue wars. i told the chemist it had to pass the dishwater test - period.

keep 'em comin...good comments so far.

My thoughts so far:
I think viscosity about the same as chocolate pudding really seems to work well.
Pot life of 20 minutes. 80% cure in 4 hours, full cure 24 hours for one option.
Pot life of 10 minutes, 80% cure in 1 hour, full cure 24 hours for another option.

What about unlimited pot life but it would have a fixture time (defined here as the amount of time needed to be clamped) of 3 to 5 minutes. This much like the Speedbonder stuff. It's very handy when you are in a hurry but you damn well be ready to assemble everything quick!

A nice to have would be it could be thinned down with something to make it less viscous so you could make mosaic pins.

It would take a dye and have specifically tested dyes available.

-60F to +275F temp range

resistance to thermal cycling

less than perfect surface prep is needed.
Click to expand...



Sounds great Tracy, I especially like the long pot life and short fix time.
Some epoxies go critical in large batches-a quality to be avoided.
Del
 
I'm pretty much with Nathan the Machinist, with the exception that I prefer a longer pot time. More like 45 minutes. I really don't mind clamping up and letting it cure overnight.

I hate the short fixture time, speedbonder idea. I use spring clamps and I want epoxy oozing out for awhile. Long enough for any bubbles to be expelled and the epoxy line to be all but invisible because all the excess is pushed out.
 
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