GW3 - Glue Wars 3 - What do you want in a knife adhesive?

I also agree with Nathan.

Yesterday I tried to epoxy some of the that real shiny liner material to a micarta handle blank and it separated rather easily even though I used Locktite epoxy. Now I wonder how I am going to get this shiny liner to bond to the knife shank?? CA worked pretty well but is a PIA cause in this warm weather it dries too quick.

Any suggestions?? I would like to see a "designer" epoxy that will stick to this liner material and steel. I think it will need to have a "hot" enough solvent base to partially soften the plastic.

John
 
tmickley said:
less than perfect surface prep is needed.
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Given the serious failure rate of glues in Glue War's 1 & 2 based solely on this, less than perfect surface prep would be wonderful.

Others are:

High strength in a very thin glue section
Longevity
Invisibility
Metal to metal
Anything to metal
Anything to anything (non-metallics)

For me, runny is not bad. I glue hidden tangs with Acra Glass and no clamps... blade down (clamped in a vise) after inserting tang into the handle, blade up.

Mike
 
The temperature range and decent strength being covered.

I like the 20 minute pot time. If I can't get it done in 20 minutes need a better plan, not a better glue.

The ability to thin for things like mosaic pins, as you mentioned.

Normal 2 part epoxy viscosity before thinning

ability to add color

say 4 oz plastic bottles that have big flat lids so you can let them set on the lids and not have to wait for the stuff to flow to the tip and not have bubbles when you are ready to use it.
 
amoretti said:
Yesterday I tried to epoxy some of the that real shiny liner material to a micarta handle blank and it separated rather easily...
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Some plastics just don't take to being glued up. For instance, yesterday I used the lid from a cool-whip container to mix up some 2-part epoxy. When the leftovers cure up you can peel it right off. Cool for clean-up; wouldn't use it for a spacer.
 
an adhesive for kydex/boltaron is being looked at also.
one package would be a dual syringe, another being looked at is 8oz bottles but maybe that is too big?
 
James_Terrio said:
Some plastics just don't take to being glued up. For instance, yesterday I used the lid from a cool-whip container to mix up some 2-part epoxy. When the leftovers cure up you can peel it right off. Cool for clean-up; wouldn't use it for a spacer.
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That lid was probably low density polyethylene, a polyolefin. This family of polymers is difficult to bond to, but it can be done. You generally start with a primer that oxidizes the surface (I think) to increase the surface energy before applying the glue. A flame passed over the surface can accomplish the same thing.

I don't know what the shiny spacer material is made of, but I'll bet it would benefit from some mechanical and chemical surface conditioning before glue. This is a critical step when bonding delrin scales.

So, there is more than just glue involved. Tracy?
 
tmickley said:
an adhesive for kydex/boltaron is being looked at also.
one package would be a dual syringe, another being looked at is 8oz bottles but maybe that is too big?
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8 oz is fine, if the stuff works and has a decent shelf life.

I don't really like syringe. The packaging costs as much as the glue...

I also don't trust 1:1 epoxy - I think there is a compromise to get that ratio. I tend to associate the better epoxies with 2:1 and 4:1 type ratios.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
....
So, there is more than just glue involved. Tracy?
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yes, at least a couple, maybe 3 or 4 as the specific applications are defined.

Nathan the Machinist said:
8 oz is fine, if the stuff works and has a decent shelf life.

I don't really like syringe. The packaging costs as much as the glue...

I also don't trust 1:1 epoxy - I think there is a compromise to get that ratio. I tend to associate the better epoxies with 2:1 and 4:1 type ratios.
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I am thinking a 12 month shelf life.

A dual syringe is a good package for some even if it is a bit more per use. I'd guess more than half of the part time makers make fewer than 6 knives a year and 16oz of epoxy would go stale in a year. Still, that's a good point and will need to be look at.

1:1 volume mix ratio is the easiest to use. The mix ratio, I am told, is an easy design spec to meet. I don't think a mix ratio of 1:1 is a weakness. That mix ratio is probably a reflection of the market it is designed for and not a design compromise.

What if the mix ratio of 1:1 was 'normal' pot life of say 20 minutes and a ratio of 1:2 would be 10 minutes pot life and and 2:1 would be a pot life of 40 minutes?
 
I always thought the mix ratios were for optimum curing reation and not just to adjust pot life.

In a dream world maybe you could track down the supplier of acraglass and sell it for half price:D.

Along with many of the great suggestions, maybe the maker could specify nonproprietary coloring and filling additives with accurate info on how the performance would be affected.

Interesting project, take care, Craig
 
OK, since we're talking about packaging, and with the caveat that most of my experience with adhesives is in semi-precious stone and jewelry:

1) I don't trust one-part adhesives. Period. They're fine, if it's carpenter's glue.

2) Really good epoxy requires a pretty consistent mix measurement for consistent results, and I include working time, cure time, and color along with strength in "results".

3) Because of 2), I despise 2-tube dispensers. It's a nightmare to try to squirt a proper mix if you're only mixing a few grams. And as mentioned before, if you're using much of it, 2-tube packaging is hella expensive.

So, how about per-use packages? If I could buy a box of vials, tear-packs, or whatever that make, oh, 1-3ml of epoxy per packet pair, I would very happily pay that premium. Less cleanup, ultimately less waste, safer storage, and more consistent mix ratios.

My 2 cents.
Doc Shipley
 
That is one of the reasons I suggested bottles with flat lids so they sit nozzle down. Getting the stuff to flow to the nozzle without air bubbles makes running 2 identical lines difficult. I hate it when I have to turn the bottle upside down and wait for it to flow to the tip so I can squeeze out 2 of the same sized lines. I had holes in my bench top to set my tip covers and hold the bottles upside down but they knock over easy that way.

Either that or 2 separate bottles each with a pump mechanism that gives uniform amount per pump. Refillable would be extra nice.

Or something like small caulk tubes with miniature guns that pressed out so much per squeeze of the trigger. They make guns for dual tube epoxy, http://mroprofessional.com/devcon50mldualcomponentgun-14280.aspx
but they use a mixing tube that mixes the stuff as it comes out. We use smaller amounts and don't need the the mixing tips. As you squeeze the trigger it plunges both tubes equally. If I could pick up a squeeze gun remove the tip covers and with a squeeze of the trigger have 2 equal amounts come out ready to mix I would love it.

The extra expense for easy to use quality dispensing equipment would be worth it to me
 
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How about a set up like this without the mixing tip. pull the trigger and the correct amounts get ejected for you to mix

5minut50ml.jpg
 
This is off topic a ways... AcraGlass measures by volume, not weight. A lot of epoxy is like that. I use small syringes without the needles. They have a tip the needle fits over. Suck up one part in one syringe and 4 parts in the other. The nature of the tool is accuracy. Wiping the tips well when done, they can be kept in the same container and neither resin nor catalyst sets up with age.

Mike
 
Mike Krall said:
This is off topic a ways... AcraGlass measures by volume, not weight. A lot of epoxy is like that. I use small syringes without the needles. They have a tip the needle fits over. Suck up one part in one syringe and 4 parts in the other. The nature of the tool is accuracy. Wiping the tips well when done, they can be kept in the same container and neither resin nor catalyst sets up with age.

Mike
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Now that's the best idea I've heard all day!


Doc
 
drdoc said:
Now that's the best idea I've heard all day!


Doc
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Not my idea, so you know. Got it from the Riverton, Wyo. knife makers... John Strohecker, Dave Banks, Mike and Audra Draper.

Getting the right syringe can be a little tough. They have to have the tip the needle friction fits to. A lot of syringes, now-a-days, are more complex designs for various reasons. Veterinarians may be a good place to get the old styles.

MIke
 
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Great idea and I bet you can get them from a vet in glass, which would be able to take solvents for occasional clean up. if the plunger came out of the barrel you could fill them from the back and use them to dispense as needed. Thats great. Thanks Jim
 
No dimension change during curing process...

In my limited experience, I've found JB weld to need a looser guard/tang fit to acommodate the metal particles. I don't know if metal comes finer but a glue for this use would be easier to deal with if there were. Or a metallic coloring system that was essentially dimensionless. I'd love to use the same glue for hidden tangs and guards.

Mike
 
I'm a little surprised that the dual tube syringe is considered inaccurate especially compared to just squirting some of each king out. We had talked about single use but I kicked that to the curb pretty quick. I'll have to look at that again. The calibrated trigger deals are just flat out too expensive.

certainly there needs to be more than one package and maybe 3?

good healthy debate so far..
 
tmickley said:
I'm a little surprised that the dual tube syringe is considered inaccurate especially compared to just squirting some of each king out. We had talked about single use but I kicked that to the curb pretty quick. I'll have to look at that again. The calibrated trigger deals are just flat out too expensive.
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Tracy, this is good stuff! Thanks for making time for it.

The dual-tube syringe would be great if the plungers and body were really rigid, or if the resin and catalyst were near the same viscosity. They aren't, so they don't squirt evenly, and once the 2 puddles meet eyeballing isn't an option any more. What happens is I squirt some, it comes out uneven, I squirt some more and overcompensate, rinse, repeat, etc.

I end up mixing 3 times as much as I need, which means that if accurately metered delivery triples the price, I've still gotten a better, more consistent product for the same money.

Of course, it's possible I'm the only goober on the planet who can't push a plunger straight. ;)


Doc Shipley
 
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