Hand American Honing Film

[changeofseasons]

If I understand you correctly, this sounds more like a lapping/flattening process on a wide surface (the inside face of the shears), as opposed to sharpening/stropping a very narrow bevel/edge. I assume you're pressing the inside surfaces of the shears flat against the glass while rubbing/polishing with the compound? If so, it makes some sense to me. This would be the same (essentially) as lapping a stone with compound on a flat, hard, smooth surface, where the compound gets underneath and can do some real work.

As for sharpening/stropping a knife on glass, where only the very edge, or a narrow bevel is making contact, I'd think using the compound on glass wouldn't be very effective, without having some medium to hold the compound as the edge passes over it. Otherwise, most of the compound would simply get 'pushed around' on the glass (I'd think).

Not being critical. Just checking if I understand what you're trying to do. It's an interesting topic.

Obsessed has it exactly right here.

Frosted glass... Tell you what. I'll try the frosted glass thing tomorrow. I'll sacrifice the back of one of my Shapton glass stones to do it. I'm not afraid to try something that might be stupid. It's just so crazy, it just might work. I'll use one micron HA diamond spray and two identical shears. I'll use one of the pairs of shears on plain plate glass as a control. I'll report back tomorrow or Monday after I'm done.

 

[jimnolimit]

That is why I'm wondering about about it.

I'll have to remember that.

I'm not against it at all. I use film often.

Films come a lot finer than the finest stones.

I should do that. Thanks.

Stitchawl

my thinking is that any porous, softer material that you use over the glass would greatly increase the diamond's effectiveness over just glass. who knows maybe it will work.

people use glass and granite because of how true their surfaces are (glass being perfectly flat). i've done a fair amount of research on forums dealing with straight razors and i have yet to see anyone strop directly on glass (and those guy use tons of homemade strops out of a variety of materials).

i didn't realize you where already using films. what films do you like the best?

how fine are the compounds you are using? (microns?) do you use any other compounds besides diamond, like chrome oxide?

what are you generally sharpening to such a fine edge?

 

[jimnolimit]

Obsessed has it exactly right here.

Frosted glass... Tell you what. I'll try the frosted glass thing tomorrow. I'll sacrifice the back of one of my Shapton glass stones to do it. I'm not afraid to try something that might be stupid. It's just so crazy, it just might work. I'll use one micron HA diamond spray and two identical shears. I'll use one of the pairs of shears on plain plate glass as a control. I'll report back tomorrow or Monday after I'm done.

what grit shapton do you have?

if you want a true control take the shapton out of the mix (which is a sharpening stone), test the 1 micron spray on glass only and glass with a film on it.

shears , what type of shears? how will you be able to tell which method achieved a better result?

 

[stitchawl]

i didn't realize you where already using films. what films do you like the best?

Ordinary films that I get in my local home centers; 4,000/8,000/10,000/ and 15,000 grits. They come in packages of four sheets roughly 10"x10" and cost the equivalent of about $8 USD per package.

how fine are the compounds you are using? (microns?) do you use any other compounds besides diamond, like chrome oxide?

I use only 'boned' cowhide strops, both bench mounted and free hanging as a substrate for compounds. I use a .5mic Chromium Oxide liquid I bought from HandAmerican about 15 years ago, some Silicon Carbide 2.5 mic and 'Black Diamond' 1.5mic also from HandAmerican from 15 years ago, some 1mic diamond paste, .5mic diamond paste, and .25mic diamond paste. The Silicon Carbide and the 'Black Diamond' are in jars, with the consistency of auto wax, while the diamond pastes are in syringes. I use different combinations for different knives. Any edges that are brought down below .5micron also get stropped on bare leather, first cowhide, then 'boned' horsehide.

what are you generally sharpening to such a fine edge?

Only non-heavy work folders.


Stitchawl

 

[changeofseasons]

what grit shapton do you have?

I have a set ranging from 2000 to 30000. But that's not the point. The Shapton Glass stones have glass backing. That backing is lightly frosted. I'm going to turn a stone over and just sharpen on the glass.

if you want a true control take the shapton out of the mix (which is a sharpening stone), test the 1 micron spray on glass only and glass with a film on it.

I have to use a water stone, which is standard practice, to hone the ride line before doing the final hone with the diamond on glass. Unfortunately, I don't have plain film to try right now. The HA film mentioned in the OP has been sold out for months. I'm following a rabbit trail here... diamond on glass vs diamond on frosted glass.

shears , what type of shears? how will you be able to tell which method achieved a better result?

Convex salon scissors. Probably Seito brand. The results of the test will not be able to be verified visually. You will just have to take my word for my description of how they cut or try it yourself. I will test the edge with practice hair from Sally Beauty Supply. I will cut normally as well as test the blades push cutting capability.

This is going to be extremely confusing to someone that's never seen this before. I'll try to be more detailed and use pictures on my next post.

 

[jimnolimit]

I have a set ranging from 2000 to 30000. But that's not the point. The Shapton Glass stones have glass backing. That backing is lightly frosted. I'm going to turn a stone over and just sharpen on the glass.



I have to use a water stone, which is standard practice, to hone the ride line before doing the final hone with the diamond on glass. Unfortunately, I don't have plain film to try right now. The HA film mentioned in the OP has been sold out for months. I'm following a rabbit trail here... diamond on glass vs diamond on frosted glass.



Convex salon scissors. Probably Seito brand. The results of the test will not be able to be verified visually. You will just have to take my word for my description of how they cut or try it yourself. I will test the edge with practice hair from Sally Beauty Supply. I will cut normally as well as test the blades push cutting capability.

This is going to be extremely confusing to someone that's never seen this before. I'll try to be more detailed and use pictures on my next post.

i didn't mean to take the shapton's totally out of the picture. both shears should be brought to the same level on the shaptons, then tested. after that, strop the shears on flat glass, frosted glass and glass with a film (using the same stropping compound). then retest the shears (you can even use the same amount of strokes for each test to see what method is more effective). this will better allow you to compare flat, frosted and filmed glass.

 

[Noctis3880]

CKTG just restocked. I ordered 10 sheets along with the honing base and a couple of leather pads as well for good measure:thumbup:.

Also bought the 0.5 micron diamond spray to replace my 0.5 micron CrO paste, because I'm a little skeptical of CrO's effectiveness on some of my high carbide steels, particularly the ones with more than 3% vanadium content.

I'll be happy to report on the results, and hopefully I'll be able to cut some free-hanging hair. First test subject will be my Sebenza of course.

 

[xtestifyx]

Noctis, I thought I was the only one doubting Chromium Oxide's performance on steels with a high Vanadium content

I'm very interested in what you'll have to say. Thank you

 

[jimnolimit]

CKTG just restocked. I ordered 10 sheets along with the honing base and a couple of leather pads as well for good measure:thumbup:.

Also bought the 0.5 micron diamond spray to replace my 0.5 micron CrO paste, because I'm a little skeptical of CrO's effectiveness on some of my high carbide steels, particularly the ones with more than 3% vanadium content.

I'll be happy to report on the results, and hopefully I'll be able to cut some free-hanging hair. First test subject will be my Sebenza of course.

Noctis, I thought I was the only one doubting Chromium Oxide's performance on steels with a high Vanadium content

I'm very interested in what you'll have to say. Thank you

after doing some research on vanadium carbide, i didn't realize how hard it is (especially compared to chromium carbide). i'll probably add some more diamond sharpening equipment to my collection (right now i have diamond in 200-600 grit). i think i'll add 1200 grit and maybe some diamond stropping compounds.

im interested in knowing how effective something like chromium oxide or alumina is at abrading the vanadium carbide particles in these steels.

p.s. has anyone used boron carbide for honing?

 

[Jason B.]

Its not very good.

S90V was the steel that made me switch to diamond compounds. The difference was night and day, when I first tried stropping S90V on chromium oxide I spent hours and made no progress. When the diamond compound arrived it was a matter of minutes before I was done and was astonished by the level of polish and excellent sharpness. I've been saying it for a while but..... diamond compounds polish better and yield sharper edges with modern steels. I feel chromium oxide and like compounds have their place but its just not with these steels.


Now for the original question. I was contacted my Keith from HA a few months back for some product testing. Among the items he sent were a package of honing films, these films seemed like a great idea at first but I quickly ran into problems. The films themselves are a thin but tough plastic material that has a frosted surface to better hold the compound (my guess). I first tried the films with 1 micron HA diamond compound, because the films were not easily cut I could use both edge leading and edge trailing strokes without worry. I started with 5-6 forward and back strokes on one side and was amazed by the speed but a little confused by the somewhat larger scratch pattern. I had suspicion the film had some abrasive action but continued testing 0.5 diamond, 1 micron boron carbide, 2 micron silicon carbide, and 0.5 micron chromium oxide. I knew something was wrong after the testing because all the compounds produced the exact same scratch pattern. I finally tried the films bare and discovered them to leave a scratch pattern in the 3-5 micron range. Its not a normal scratch though and looks more like what you would find with a natural waterstone.

I reported all my findings to Keith but didn't get a report back, this was several months ago so a product change could have been made. Its a great product idea but I think the frosted surface resulted in abrasive action. Noctis3880, when you get yours I too would like to hear your results.

 

[Noctis3880]

after doing some research on vanadium carbide, i didn't realize how hard it is (especially compared to chromium carbide). i'll probably add some more diamond sharpening equipment to my collection (right now i have diamond in 200-600 grit). i think i'll add 1200 grit and maybe some diamond stropping compounds.

im interested in knowing how effective something like chromium oxide or alumina is at abrading the vanadium carbide particles in these steels.

p.s. has anyone used boron carbide for honing?

Not sure about CrO since I would bet money that Chromium Carbides have a different hardness than Chromium Oxide. Call me paranoid, but having tried a CrO loaded belt on my Work Sharp, I found that my near mirror polished edge got "fogged" up by a supposedly 0.5 micron abrasive. It's like the steel itself was abraded, but the carbides were left on the surface, causing it to be less than smooth.

Aluminum Oxide seems to work very well, as I can sharpen most blades fine with it. Though S90V did take longer to polish up, the edge is mirror polished just fine:thumbup:.

Still, diamond seems to be a better choice if you're not stingy. At the very least it will take less strokes to touch up.

 

[jimnolimit]

Not sure about CrO since I would bet money that Chromium Carbides have a different hardness than Chromium Oxide. Call me paranoid, but having tried a CrO loaded belt on my Work Sharp, I found that my near mirror polished edge got "fogged" up by a supposedly 0.5 micron abrasive. It's like the steel itself was abraded, but the carbides were left on the surface, causing it to be less than smooth.

Aluminum Oxide seems to work very well, as I can sharpen most blades fine with it. Though S90V did take longer to polish up, the edge is mirror polished just fine:thumbup:.

Still, diamond seems to be a better choice if you're not stingy. At the very least it will take less strokes to touch up.

from my research, on the vickers microhardness scale:

chromium oxide = ? it's softer than aluminum oxide (8.5 vs 9.0 on the mohs scale)
aluminum oxide = 2085
chromium carbide = 2280
vanadium carbide = 2950
boron carbide = 3200
diamond = many times harder than all of these.

 

[jimnolimit]

Its not very good.

S90V was the steel that made me switch to diamond compounds. The difference was night and day, when I first tried stropping S90V on chromium oxide I spent hours and made no progress. When the diamond compound arrived it was a matter of minutes before I was done and was astonished by the level of polish and excellent sharpness. I've been saying it for a while but..... diamond compounds polish better and yield sharper edges with modern steels. I feel chromium oxide and like compounds have their place but its just not with these steels.


Now for the original question. I was contacted my Keith from HA a few months back for some product testing. Among the items he sent were a package of honing films, these films seemed like a great idea at first but I quickly ran into problems. The films themselves are a thin but tough plastic material that has a frosted surface to better hold the compound (my guess). I first tried the films with 1 micron HA diamond compound, because the films were not easily cut I could use both edge leading and edge trailing strokes without worry. I started with 5-6 forward and back strokes on one side and was amazed by the speed but a little confused by the somewhat larger scratch pattern. I had suspicion the film had some abrasive action but continued testing 0.5 diamond, 1 micron boron carbide, 2 micron silicon carbide, and 0.5 micron chromium oxide. I knew something was wrong after the testing because all the compounds produced the exact same scratch pattern. I finally tried the films bare and discovered them to leave a scratch pattern in the 3-5 micron range. Its not a normal scratch though and looks more like what you would find with a natural waterstone.

I reported all my findings to Keith but didn't get a report back, this was several months ago so a product change could have been made. Its a great product idea but I think the frosted surface resulted in abrasive action. Noctis3880, when you get yours I too would like to hear your results.

have you done anymore testing with boron carbide? is it a fast cutter?

if i were to strop alot of knives (both small and large), would you consider boron carbide as an economical alternative to diamond? i assume that as the strop loads up i will have to clean it off which would cause me to lose most of the diamond that was applied, is this correct?

p.s. i might have to personally contact you to learn more about setting up myself for stropping (and discussing your findings through experience).

 

[xtestifyx]

p.s. i might have to personally contact you to learn more about setting up myself for stropping (and discussing your findings through experience).

Some very good information around here, I'd love to hear more about HA's Diamond Sprays and DMT's Diamond Pastes.

I feel that we should have a discussion purely on Stropping compounds. If we can get enough users to submit their thoughts and opinions on a grid, we can have a lot of entries and provide a database for those who are just stumbling into stropping :thumbup:

 

[Jason B.]

1 micron boron carbide is very fast but not as fast as diamond. It shows a more visible scratch pattern and a slight randomness in scratch size. The edge is more toothy but still extremely sharp and what you would expect from that abrasive size.

In comparison 1 micron diamond still produces a better "true mirror" finish where the boron because of its slightly visible scratch pattern creates a milky effect. Looking at the knife a foot away you probably couldn't tell though and with some steels the surface luster will look brighter than I describe. To many factors to try and explain and a lot of it will relate to the steel.

I think the main positive factor of the boron is that it does not slow down for harder steels like chromium oxide does.

As good as 1 micron diamond? no, good enough to be effective on a broad range of steels without causing headaches? yes.

 

[jimnolimit]

Some very good information around here, I'd love to hear more about HA's Diamond Sprays and DMT's Diamond Pastes.

I feel that we should have a discussion purely on Stropping compounds. If we can get enough users to submit their thoughts and opinions on a grid, we can have a lot of entries and provide a database for those who are just stumbling into stropping :thumbup:

i have done a ton of research on stropping both on here and on various straight razor forums. all i need now is a little guidance from people with experience/testing under there belt (like knifenut). info i get or learn i will share it with the community.

p.s. i just bought a used straight razor today, so my new project will be to restore it back the edge 100%.

 

[jimnolimit]

1 micron boron carbide is very fast but not as fast as diamond. It shows a more visible scratch pattern and a slight randomness in scratch size. The edge is more toothy but still extremely sharp and what you would expect from that abrasive size.

In comparison 1 micron diamond still produces a better "true mirror" finish where the boron because of its slightly visible scratch pattern creates a milky effect. Looking at the knife a foot away you probably couldn't tell though and with some steels the surface luster will look brighter than I describe. To many factors to try and explain and a lot of it will relate to the steel.

I think the main positive factor of the boron is that it does not slow down for harder steels like chromium oxide does.

As good as 1 micron diamond? no, good enough to be effective on a broad range of steels without causing headaches? yes.

im going to make up 3-4 bench strops so i can use different levels and types of abrasives. im interested in the boron carbide because for the money you get alot of it. i figured if i regularly strop with boron carbide, my strop will get overloaded with steel particles (especially from my kitchen knives) and i will be cleaning out my strop fairly often. it's my thinking that using nothing but small syringes of diamond paste could get expensive, or am i mistaken? also, doubt i will bring most of my edges past 1 micron. right now i keep my edges between 1200 and 6000 grit.

i figure i can have one strop loaded with 1 micron boron carbide, another with 0.5 micron chromium oxide, and another with 0.5 micron diamond, what do you think? do you think it's ok to go from a (lets say) 4000 grit king super deluxe water stone to boron carbide or should i add a stone in the 10k-12k range (which i have been thinking about)? does that sound right?

 

[Noctis3880]

This is just a thought, but wouldn't the films be easier to clean up than a leather or balsa wood strop? In theory, all you really need to do to clean up that loaded steel is dish detergent and warm water. Whereas with the others you need to break out the sandpaper.

I'm also interested to hear how the honing film already seems to be loaded with some sort of abrasive, but again wouldn't washing the film out clean anything foreign on it?

 

[xtestifyx]

I personally prefer Balsa wood for stropping that requires a flat surface. Maybe it's my leather strops that let me down, or the unevenness of the Compound I use

I clean Balsa with a napkin, that takes all the shine out of the surface and allows you to apply a coat of Compound.

I don't like Films much, since the scratching pattern is disturbed with the slightest steel removal. The films that I use to do a final finish don't last very long at all. Soap and a scrubbing pad or napkin doesn't seem to do much or anything

Your Mileage may vary!

Thanks

 

[changeofseasons]

Frosted Vs. Unfrosted Glass w/ 1 micron Diamond

The results are in on my slightly dumb / slightly scientific / slightly unscientific test. First, the pictures...

I used three pairs of scissors for this test. One pair, shown here, was the control. It was a pair that I know is sharp and was honed with an 8000 grit Shapton.

These two scissors were the test subjects and are nearly identical. Both were brand new and honed on the same 8000 stone prior to testing.

This picture shows the back of a 2000 stone, the 8000 stone used prior to the test, and the 1 micron spray used in the test.

This is the plain glass plate used in the test. It looks scratched up, but I used the clean smooth side of the glass. I didn't have a brand new piece for the test.

Here is the first blade of the first shear being honed on the frosted glass back of the Shapton stone. 5 spritzes of 1 micron spray was used. 5 forward strokes and 5 backward strokes were used on each blade. The same process was done with the other pair of scissors on the plain plate glass.

The diamond on glass definitely did cut the steel as is evidenced by the dark swarf pictured here. There was a little less swarf on the plain plate glass. No picture, sorry. Ultimately the frosted glass held the compound much better.

Both shears that were honed on glass with the 1 micron diamond spray cut hair better than the control pair. Both test pairs cut hair so effortlessly I honestly couldn't distinguish the difference. The bigger question will be how long these shears can cut hair and maintain that edge.