handle gluing.

jdm61

jdm61

itinerant metal pounder
Joined
Aug 12, 2005
Messages
47,357
I use West Sytem epoxy to glue up the tang to the handle on my knives, but I was wondering what it the best glue to glue wood to wood say if you are making a multi piece wa handle? I would still use epoxy in the final glue up, but I was wondering if some kind of wood glue would be better for sticking the wood pieces together, like gluing a slotted dowel into the body and ferrule of the wa handle?
 
Hey bud, I use west systems for everything. The stuff is pretty solid in any knife type application. It's definitely tested and true.
 
Titebond II is an amazing wood glue. I have run wood glued with it through the dishwasher, froze it, etc. It really sticks wood together. If a joint fails, the wood breaks, not the glue. My experience is, a 1" cube of wood glued to another 1" piece of wood can not be broken by hand.
I like West Systems for epoxy, but for wood I don't think anything beats Titebond II.
 
I use Tightbond II on many things. The joint is much less visible. Also the glue penetrates the wood to make the bond. This allows tightly clamped joints.Epoxy needs a small gap. If you hard clamp epoxy joined wood that is sanded to a perfect flat joint, it may fail easily. That is why you need to recess the handle scales and tang a bit to make a reservoir for some resin to stay in.
 
Stacy, does that apply only to unstabilized or otherwise untreated wood? Some of the handles that I want to make will contain both stabilized wood and unstabilized would like holly and "oily" wood like blackwood and rosewood. I know the the Tightbond website tells you to do the light shading and acetone trick on oily tropical woods.
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I use Tightbond II on many things. The joint is much less visible. Also the glue penetrates the wood to make the bond. This allows tightly clamped joints.Epoxy needs a small gap. If you hard clamp epoxy joined wood that is sanded to a perfect flat joint, it may fail easily. That is why you need to recess the handle scales and tang a bit to make a reservoir for some resin to stay in.
Click to expand...
 
I'm also interested in this (planning some wa handle kitchen knives in the future). What if you use a spacer between the main part and the ferrule (either metal, G-10, buffalo horn)?
 
I sand smooth and flat to 120 grit. Wipe down the mating surfaces well with plenty of acetone, and apply Tightbond II to both surfaces. I usually rub it in a bit with my fingertip. Clamp with spring clamps and set aside to dry. Stabilized or nor ( or a combo of both) the wood stays together when cured a day later. I do saya the same way.


Tip on doing a wa or similar bolstered handle:
Take the block of wood that will be split , mortised, and then re-glued and cut it just slightly off center on the table/band saw. Flatten by sanding in a figure-eight motion with 120-220 grit on the surface plate or sheet of plate glass. Check that the pieces fit together without gaps, then inlet the handle for the tang. Inlet only the thicker piece. Once the blocks can be clamped together without gaps, and the tang will slip in and out smoothly, the inletting is done. Clean up, wipe down heavily with acetone, let dry, apply glue, clamp. Set aside for 24 hours to cure.

Sand the end with the tang hole flat and at 90° to the block. Again, 120 grit is good. Sand a bolster block ( ebony is my usual bolster) flat and check the fit. Cut the slot in the bolster to be a snug fit to the tang. A trick here is to route/drill the back side of the bolster out to within about 1/4" of the front. then you are only slotting a thin section, not the entire block thickness.

When ready to attach the bolster block Slide the tang in the bolster, and slip on the handle piece to check for a perfect fit. If all is good, give the blade tang a good coat of car wax or Renaissance wax. Fill the tang hole with slow set epoxy, wipe epoxy on the bolster block and its slot, and slide it all on the tang. Wipe off the resin squeeze-out and check that all is seated properly. Clamp in a handle clamping jig if you have one ( good idea to make one if you will many knives). Check the glue pot to monitor how the resin is setting up. When it starts gelling, carefully pull the blade out of the handle, while leaving the handle assembly in the clamping jig. Clean tang/blade off with acetone, re-insert, pull out and clean, repeat, etc. Do this until it goes in and out easily and comes out clean. This assures the alignment of the tang hole is right. I check the blade fit again just as the resin in the cup is starting to set solid. This is the last chance to easily get out any extra resin from the tang slot. It sounds more time intensive than it really is.
Once the epoxy cures for a day or two, sand the bolster block flush with the sides of the handle block. Next, sand the front of the bolster block to 400 grit and make sure it is square to the handle. Stick the tang in the block and make a mental note of how it sticks out ( is there any rise or fall?). Lay the tang on the outside of the handle aligning the shoulders with the bolster front, and making it sit just like it did inside the handle. When it is properly placed, mark the center of pin hole in the tang on the handle side. Note - The tang hole should be about 50% to 100% larger than the pin size used. For the standard 1/8" pin, the tang hole should be 3/16" to 1/4". Slip the blade in the handle and seat it fully. I like to whack it in and out a bunch of times by hand to make the shoulders seat snugly against the bolster. Once it is tightly seated, use a 1/16" drill bit and drill through the marked spot slowly. Hopefully, it will go right through the tang hole. Remove the blade and shape the wa handle as desired Sand to final grit, but don't apply any finish until after assembly. Assemble on the finished blade with epoxy. It will only take a little bit, and some will squeeze out of the 1/16" pin holes. Wipe the drips and excess off at the bolster and pin holes with denatured alcohol. When cured, re-drill the tang pin hole with an 1/8" drill bit ( or the size to fit your pin), apply some epoxy to the pin and hole, and slip in the pin. The rest is pretty much normal finishing.
 
Titebond III is good also.

Gorilla Glue does a good job if at least one of the two materials is hygroscopic enough that is holds the moisture to start the chemical reaction the Gorilla Glue needs. Wetting the wood before spreading the Gorilla Glue on the steel helps.
 
I've used Gorilla Glue on a keychain I had that broke (I dropped it) and followed the directions exactly and it didn't hold at all. I'm not a big fan of Gorilla Glue and in my experience would not use it on a knife.
 
I've had excellent results with Gorilla Glue. Both with (natural or stabilized) wood to epoxy, and either one to steel. Haven't broken anything that used it yet, but I didn't do any hardcore torture-testing either. One I know about it is, your mating surfaces better be very close to flat/perfect and you better clamp the dickens out of it, or not only will it probably not cure and hold as well, you'll get about the ugliest damn glue line you can imagine. The big advantage is, it's really easy/fast to work with and clean up if everything fits right in the first place.

If I was going to do a lot of wood-to-wood lams or dovetails and such, I'd listen to the woodworking guys and use TiteBond II. That's what it's for :)
 
There is no reason to not use the West System you already have, Joe. think for a second - it's a marine epoxy.
It's used to hold wood boats together.
For example, I built this last fall and I beat the snot out of it. Made from all raw materials - cedar, maple, redwood, etc. - and held together with WS -







 
Karl B. Andersen said:
There is no reason to not use the West System you already have, Joe. think for a second - it's a marine epoxy.
It's used to hold wood boats together.
For example, I built this last fall and I beat the snot out of it. Made from all raw materials - cedar, maple, redwood, etc. - and held together with WS -







Click to expand...

That's nice!! How long did it take you to make?
 
Dammit Karl, now you got me sneaking back over to the Wooden Boat Store and Bateau websites again!!!!!!!:mad: You KNOW that can eventually lead to buying that damn West 105 resin by the bucket instead of the pint!!!!!!;)
Karl B. Andersen said:
There is no reason to not use the West System you already have, Joe. think for a second - it's a marine epoxy.
It's used to hold wood boats together.
For example, I built this last fall and I beat the snot out of it. Made from all raw materials - cedar, maple, redwood, etc. - and held together with WS -







Click to expand...
 
Karl - that is a BEAUTIFUL!!! canoe- and the workmanship is fantastic! That is too purty to put in the water {g}
 
Ken H> said:
Karl - that is a BEAUTIFUL!!! canoe- and the workmanship is fantastic! That is too purty to put in the water {g}
Click to expand...


I just spent a week in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness carrying a heavy load.
The West System held up just fine.
Of course - she has a few more scratches than before. But what good is a canoe if she ain't beat up?






 
I agree Karl - what good is a boat if you can't use it - much like a "never been fired" collector's rifle safe queen.

Ken H>
 
Karl, you don't have a layer of fiberglass over all that...? Just straight wood?
 
Matthew Gregory said:
Karl, you don't have a layer of fiberglass over all that...? Just straight wood?
Click to expand...

Matt, there's all kinds of fiberglass on that. A layer of 6oz, both inside and out, with three coats of West System epoxy on the outside and one coat on the inside.
Wood glue was used between the bead and cove strip edges, but all of the furniture - decks, thwarts, gunwales, etc., are held in place with West System.
It is the strongest adhesive I know of.
In respect to Joe's first question, West System would be my first choice when attaching wood to wood for knife making purposes. The epoxy joint, itself, would be stronger than the wood on either side.
I have a friend who builds wet bars that a lot of folks put in their basements.
When he is locating the bar for its permanent position, he literally drill holes in the concrete floor, fills them with West System, TAPS THE EPOXY!! when it hardens, and then bolts the furniture to the floor.
It is that strong.
West System is a marine epoxy.
It is depended upon to hold thousands and thousands of canoes, kayaks, sail boats, etc together, year after year, all around the world.
I'm pretty sure it'll hold a knife handle together.
 
I was going to ask if you put the "slip coat" of glass on the hull. I have watched videos of some guys building a traditional mahogany boat in this untraditional matter and was pleasantly surprised at how well those glass layers "disappear" as long as you only use one or two of them. I am contemplating eventually building a Bahamian style "skiff" fishing boat in the 18-20 foot range and dicing between hybrid stick and glue construction with a THICK outer skin of glass or going the more complex cold molded direction. I was thinking that a project like yours or a small rowboat would be a good first project to figure out the construction method.
Karl B. Andersen said:
Matt, there's all kinds of fiberglass on that. A layer of 6oz, both inside and out, with three coats of West System epoxy on the outside and one coat on the inside.
Wood glue was used between the bead and cove strip edges, but all of the furniture - decks, thwarts, gunwales, etc., are held in place with West System.
It is the strongest adhesive I know of.
In respect to Joe's first question, West System would be my first choice when attaching wood to wood for knife making purposes. The epoxy joint, itself, would be stronger than the wood on either side.
I have a friend who builds wet bars that a lot of folks put in their basements.
When he is locating the bar for its permanent position, he literally drill holes in the concrete floor, fills them with West System, TAPS THE EPOXY!! when it hardens, and then bolts the furniture to the floor.
It is that strong.
West System is a marine epoxy.
It is depended upon to hold thousands and thousands of canoes, kayaks, sail boats, etc together, year after year, all around the world.
I'm pretty sure it'll hold a knife handle together.
Click to expand...
 
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