Hard flipper action 560

iTz Schmiedy · Apr 1, 2012

is it really that stiff?

dodgeem33 · Apr 1, 2012

Not THAT bad, just stiffer than the Tilt. I wouldn't notice it but the last to jimps on the frame tend to dig in when I flip it....I'll certainly live with it and have to toughen up my finger! Still a great knife.

PURPLEDC · Apr 1, 2012

Man i really wish I would have left my knife stock. Id be more than willing to swap it with someone who has this infamous detent from hell.

The Virginian said:
Hi.

In response to your question, NO this is not normal. It may be normal for this particular knife, but this particular knife itself is not normal or representative of other flippers.

IMO, the detent on this knife is totally unacceptable. And that is being kind - because the words I really want to use would be deemed inappropriate here. If I ever have a beer with you, say at the Blade Show, I will tell you what I REALLY think of it. I own a real XM-18 - which is a terrific knife and which flips open exactly as a flipper should. It does not have the detent problems that this knife has. And yes, I read Thomas' thread which was mentioned earlier. It is nothing but sugar coating. The XM-18 is "living proof" that this ridiculous detent was totally unnecessary and is nothing but a mistake by the manufacturer. IMO, it is a major flaw which ruins what would otherwise be a decent knife.

Wha is worse are all of the posts I have read here and elsewhere by folks who bought this knife who had never owned a flipper before, and based on this knife have now come to the conclusion that flipper knives are not for them. That is sad, because IMO this knife is a very bad representation of what the action of a flipper knife should be because the detent is just too pronounced. And I do not accept the comparion to the Microtech OTF knives because I own one of those, too and it is far easier to operate than the flipper action on this knife.

I am planning to post a review of this knife at BF in the next couple of days, but in the General Knife forum, not in this forum as I do not believe that the hosts of this forum would not appreciate me using their forum for my review.

and you obviously dont own a early Scarab, early Makora II or a 2008 ultratech. Different knives are made differently. To say that ZT made their knife "wrong" simply because you have a knife that is different is a very juvenile way of looking at things. Rj martin prefers having a strong detent. Are his knives made "wrong" because they arent like your XM?

RevDevil said:
Any knife with a true bearing or bushing system (in this case KVT), pivot tightness makes zero difference. The blade in the handle is riding on ball bearings and not washers. Very little friction in KVT vs traditional washers made of Nylatron or PB. I suspect that in this case, he might be pressing the lockbar in while not operating the flipper correctly. This appears to be the most common problem, and the knife is always blamed.

actually most knives with a bearing system like the 0560 and balisongs with IKBS can be overtightened to the point where they simply wont move. You actually need to take more care not to overtighten the pivot than on a flat washer system. The reason being is there is nothing like a bushing preventing the handle slabs from pinching the bearings. Then those bearings dig into the races. Sure when properly set up they are very smooth and fast. But it is not like a bushing system where the blade play is determined by the tolerances of said bushing.

Varga Knives · Apr 1, 2012

RevDevil said:
Any knife with a true bearing or bushing system (in this case KVT), pivot tightness makes zero difference. The blade in the handle is riding on ball bearings and not washers. Very little friction in KVT vs traditional washers made of Nylatron or PB.

I hear what you're saying but I was disappointed in the flipper action right out of the box. Loosened the pivot a miniscule amount and voila, flips like magic.

Stainz · Apr 1, 2012

"I'm gonna tell your momma... then I'm gonna tell her again!"

Well, of the 0560/0561 examples out on display at my local sharp things emporium, aka 'The Enabler', on my next to the last visit - they were all fairly easy to flip. So, I bought a sight unseen/unopenned 0561. I get home - and it was decidedly stiffer than the demo's. Five flips later - and it was at least as easy as the demo's. Over a week later, it's more so. At my last visit, I let another customer try mine - he said it was hard - until I showed him how to flip it. It is decidedly easier to flip than the demo's... I guess the bearing needed to be worked to allow the lube to 'flow'. Unlike the 0551's, where the bushings tension and resulting blade position are a function of the pivot screw tightness, the 0561 bearing system makes the blade inherently self-centering. A problem the OP eluded to that is real, or was on my 0561 s/n 018X, is the sharp inside edges of the Ti & G10 jimping. It could take DNA samples as delivered - a condition remedied with an UF nailboard and a few minutes time. Of course, asking my wife for a nailboard drew comments like, "So, I guess you'll want those pink handled knives and guns afterall!".

My smoothest flippers were my JYDII's - including the SG2's and CB's. Not now - the 0561 takes that honor now. But - you have to hold your nose right... and be willing to leave your DNA sample on that jimping, unless it's been eased.

Stainz

PS That customer last week - after seeing how to 'flip' it properly - and noting mine was still easier than the demo's to deploy - took a 0560 home with him. Another guy saw my CRK/WC 'StarTac' Umnumzaan - and left with a new S35VN Umnumzaan (He already had a 0560!). I should get a commission. Naw, great knives sell themselves.

RevDevil · Apr 1, 2012

PURPLEDC said:
actually most knives with a bearing system like the 0560 and balisongs with IKBS can be overtightened to the point where they simply wont move. You actually need to take more care not to overtighten the pivot than on a flat washer system. The reason being is there is nothing like a bushing preventing the handle slabs from pinching the bearings. Then those bearings dig into the races. Sure when properly set up they are very smooth and fast. But it is not like a bushing system where the blade play is determined by the tolerances of said bushing.

I was using the Tilt as an example. The pivot screw is as tight as it can get without stripping or damaging the KVT, and it fires out like it is supposed to. The only specimen of 0560 that I own does the same thing. The pivot is tight and the blade opens fully despite the "unacceptable" detent. There is no noticeable difference with a 1/4 or 1/2 turn loosening the pivot (again, on my knife). If others have luck with this well, right on right on. :thumbup:

The comparison to another brand would be the Manix2, the pivot when tightened all the way does not have any effect on blade movement. The same thing with A Para2, and Sebenzas.

Badhammer · Apr 1, 2012

All I can add to this thread is that I love my 0560. That being said is the detent as soft as my various Junkyard Dogs, no it's not. My SG2 flips like it's riding on air. My others are almost as smooth but not quite. With that in mind my 0560 is not a JYD and my JYDs are not an 0560. I'm quite happy with them all.

5.56 · Apr 1, 2012

Can we combine all of these detent treads into one giant "dainty and weak fingers thread?"

Thomas W · Apr 1, 2012

OK, thought I should address the post vs. just identifying the source of it's origin.

The Virginian said:
NO this is not normal. It may be normal for this particular knife, but this particular knife itself is not normal or representative of other flippers.

It is normal if you're looking for a flipper to, you know, flip. You saying it's flawed or poorly designed shows you've stepped out of your wheelhouse (whatever that is).

IMO, the detent on this knife is totally unacceptable. And that is being kind - because the words I really want to use would be deemed inappropriate here. If I ever have a beer with you, say at the Blade Show, I will tell you what I REALLY think of it.

Your opinion totally comes off angry, uninformed, and without merit. I'd go farther, and use words really needed to capture the ignorance, but they would be deemed inappropriate here. If I have have a scotch with you, say at Blade in a few months, I tell you how I REALLY feel about your opinion.

I own a real XM-18 - which is a terrific knife and which flips open exactly as a flipper should.

They are nice aren't they? I'm unsure about flipping like a flipper should part though. There are many that feel wrist action with a flipper shouldn't be needed. Perhaps its time that there should be some sub categories within general flippers so to identify them appropriately.

It does not have the detent problems that this knife has.

Ever thought there is more than one way to set-up a flipper? I really give Tim Galyean a lions share of the credit when it comes to all this manual flipper business. He's a talented maker. He understands geometry, mechanics, and how to properly make a flipper. There are other makers that specialize in flippers, we've pretty much worked with the majority of them. We're really good at making flippers. To say this knife has detent problems is spitting in the face of makers and manufacturers that know how to make flippers flip.

Rick's set up is quite different. Is it better? Maybe for some, but to say it should be the only way is...lame.

And yes, I read Thomas' thread which was mentioned earlier. It is nothing but sugar coating.

Sugar coating? So you're insulting me personally now as well.

The XM-18 is "living proof" that this ridiculous detent was totally unnecessary and is nothing but a mistake by the manufacturer. IMO, it is a major flaw which ruins what would otherwise be a decent knife.

See above, Drama much?

Try not to confuse your personal preferences and bias attitude as a way of trying to prove your seriously silly claims.

Wha is worse are all of the posts I have read here and elsewhere by folks who bought this knife who had never owned a flipper before, and based on this knife have now come to the conclusion that flipper knives are not for them. That is sad, because IMO this knife is a very bad representation of what the action of a flipper knife should be because the detent is just too pronounced.

Oh yes the horror...

Please, we've done this set up for years. Try living in the flipping now. You're showing your age and disconnect from the category. Go back to fondling your precious fixed blades and the such.

I am planning to post a review of this knife at BF in the next couple of days, but in the General Knife forum, not in this forum as I do not believe that the hosts of this forum would not appreciate me using their forum for my review.

Ummm ok...really looking forward to that. Try studying up on flippers first so not to sound like you do here. It will be better for your confidence going forward.

PG5768 · Apr 1, 2012

Very well said, Thomas.

I think Rob nailed it, too. "Dainty fingers" or too steep a learning curve.

dark impaler · Apr 1, 2012

Thomas W said:
OK, thought I should address the post vs. just identifying the source of it's origin...

Thomas on point...a pleasure to read.

og556 · Apr 1, 2012

I personally prefer the most stout detent I can have on a knife like this. I have owned large bladed knives over the years that were way too easy to deploy.

A good example was my Combative Edge M1. This was a fine knife but the blade deployed way too easily. One day I hope I will own a 0561 or 0560.

PURPLEDC · Apr 1, 2012

RevDevil said:
I was using the Tilt as an example. The pivot screw is as tight as it can get without stripping or damaging the KVT, and it fires out like it is supposed to. The only specimen of 0560 that I own does the same thing. The pivot is tight and the blade opens fully despite the "unacceptable" detent. There is no noticeable difference with a 1/4 or 1/2 turn loosening the pivot (again, on my knife). If others have luck with this well, right on right on. :thumbup:

The comparison to another brand would be the Manix2, the pivot when tightened all the way does not have any effect on blade movement. The same thing with A Para2, and Sebenzas.

Thats very odd as I just did a tear down on my knife 3 times this week and each time accidentally tightened it to the point that the blade wouldnt even move with force. And none of my IKBS knives have ever been beyond over tightening.

Trident777 · Apr 1, 2012

This poser is looking for attention. Dude, take it elsewhere. The 560 is an amazing collaboration with the hinderer ranch. I have both xm-18 and xm-24 and will say this is the best bang for the buck quality and design features out there. And I've owned them all. Very nice knife and excellent quality. Everyone has something to say, thats why custom makers exist to fill your crazy wants. This is a production knife with custom top of the line features, love the ball bearing system even smoother if you ask me with zero adjustment needed like my xm's. This is my first Zero Tolerance and I am now a fan in a big way. If you're looking to hate dont do it here. We are all here to learn, not learn about your messed up attitude.

bigmark408 · Apr 1, 2012

5.56 said:
Can we combine all of these detent treads into one giant "dainty and weak fingers thread?"

Best post ever....made me smile.

RevDevil · Apr 1, 2012

PURPLEDC said:
Thats very odd as I just did a tear down on my knife 3 times this week and each time accidentally tightened it to the point that the blade wouldnt even move with force. And none of my IKBS knives have ever been beyond over tightening.

What knife? The 0560?

jmsodpc · Apr 1, 2012

the fact that many people are comparing the 0560 to an XM-18 has got me really excited....a $260 knife being compared with a $800 knife seems like great value to me. cant wait for knifecenter to ship my 0561!

Daniel · Apr 1, 2012

Actually, it is comparing a $325 knife to a $385 knife.

PURPLEDC · Apr 1, 2012

yes. I customize knives as a hobby. I flame colored the Frame of my 0560 and the clip and then after assembly decided to do the liner as well. Then I decided to tear it down yet again to adjust the lockbar. each time I had to back off the pivot screw after assembly to make sure the blade would move. I dont know why you never have an issue with it but in most cases bearing pivots can lock up. Now bushing pivots are a whole other story as the play in a knife with a bushing system is pre determined by the bushing itself and the handle slabs cant pinch the blade do to the bushing being slightly thicker than the blade.

Dunny153 · Apr 1, 2012

Man this thread is so full of LOL moments, it's awesome! My 560 is coming in on Monday, so I'll reserve comments about the knife until then.