Ok. I ordered a strop from a reputable dealer online and, well a little water turned the whole thing to mush. The leather is ruined so I'm going to make one myself. I went to the leather store and got two kinds. The first: veg. tanned hide. Now I've read that a lot of people prefer this stuff. But, it seems "hard", thin and not very plyable(sp?). The top is very smooth and doesn't have any bite to it. The other piece is darker but I dont know how it was tanned. Its a little softer, thicker and even with no compound it feels like it grabs the knife edge moreso than the other, if that makes any sense. Which do I want? I see people using MDF as well, so is harder and smoother better?
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Hard or "soft" leather for strop?
- Thread starter vickmacky
- Start date
Greetings Vickmacky: I would go with the "hard", thin and not very pliable. Vegetable tanned leather usually retains more of the hide's natural silicates which are desirable if you intend to use it without compound. If you are going to apply an abrasive compound, the tanning method used is less important. For a blade with a "V" grind, a firm stropping surface is still an asset. If you desire a slightly convex edge, a softer leather surface will further that end. If you are not familiar with the process a "soft" strop can curl back over the blade edge and actually reduce it's sharpness. OldDude1
Vic... OldDude is telling you true...
1. For flat grind knives you want a hard surface. (Use the smooth side of the leather.)
2. For convex edges you want a softer surface. (Use the rough side of the leather.)
3. For hollow-grind edges and convex you might want to use a hanging strop (Like a barber strop)
4. For flat grinds you want to use a bench mounted strop for best results.
A. If you are going to use compound, the substrate hardness is only important, not it's composition. Leather, MDF, smooth maple, glass... all will work equally well.
B. If you're going to use a bare leather strop, leather with the most natural silicates is what you are after. You find those silicates in vegetable tanned horsehide and cowhide, horsehide having a LOT more of them. (You can REALLY feel that 'bite' when stropping with horsehide!)
Be careful of getting caught up in the stropping game. Stropping is the final step in sharpening. Two strops are more than enough if you use your stones correctly; one with compound and one bare.
Stitchawl
1. For flat grind knives you want a hard surface. (Use the smooth side of the leather.)
2. For convex edges you want a softer surface. (Use the rough side of the leather.)
3. For hollow-grind edges and convex you might want to use a hanging strop (Like a barber strop)
4. For flat grinds you want to use a bench mounted strop for best results.
A. If you are going to use compound, the substrate hardness is only important, not it's composition. Leather, MDF, smooth maple, glass... all will work equally well.
B. If you're going to use a bare leather strop, leather with the most natural silicates is what you are after. You find those silicates in vegetable tanned horsehide and cowhide, horsehide having a LOT more of them. (You can REALLY feel that 'bite' when stropping with horsehide!)
Be careful of getting caught up in the stropping game. Stropping is the final step in sharpening. Two strops are more than enough if you use your stones correctly; one with compound and one bare.
Stitchawl
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2009
- Messages
- 13,393
An easy way to add some 'bite' to smooth leather is to sand it. I've been using some medium grit (like 220 or so), on a sanding block, to sand the smooth side of the veg-tanned leather I've made my strops from. It gives the leather a velvety 'nap', which you can feel 'grab' the edge when stropping. Your water-damaged strop may not necessarily be ruined. You might try sanding it to rejuvenate it's surface.
For strops with compound, the 'nap' created by sanding gives your compound a lot more surface area to hold onto when it's applied to the strop. Allows you to apply more compound to the strop, without the 'caking' that would otherwise result.
For strops with compound, the 'nap' created by sanding gives your compound a lot more surface area to hold onto when it's applied to the strop. Allows you to apply more compound to the strop, without the 'caking' that would otherwise result.
I believe, most, if not all the silicates are contained in the epidermis of the hides. If the strop is to be used without compound, sanding might substantially reduce the available silicates which are largely confined to the outer layer of the skin. If compound is to be used the available silicates are not a major concern. On the other hand, I could be wrong. It won't be the first time. OldDude1
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2009
- Messages
- 13,393
As to where the silicates are in the leather, I'm no expert. However, I do know that I really like the results I've been getting with my strops since I started sanding 'em.
My next question would be, 'Why are the silicates only in the outer layer/surface of the leather?' What process (natural or process/tanning-related) would result in the silicates being present only on the outer surface? If leather is like any other 'skin' (animal or otherwise), the outer layers are constantly sloughed off and replaced by cells from beneath. So if the silicates are a natural component of the leather, why would they not also be present beneath the outermost surface?
If, on the other hand, the silicates are deposited as a result of the tanning process, what does that imply? Is the leather soaked (immersed) in the tanning solution? If so, wouldn't that allow for deeper absorption of the silicates into the leather?
I can understand how some strops are specially treated/moisturized at time of manufacture, to make their surface more supple and/or 'grippy'. In those cases, I can see how sanding might make them less effective. But, in the case of simple tanned leather, I'm not so sure it would degrade performance much, if at all.
I'm not trying to be argumentative or disrespectful, but just trying to learn something new here.
If sanding it would make it more "velvety", couldn't you just use the other side thats more suede like?
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2009
- Messages
- 13,393
I knew someone would mention that
.Some people do like to use the 'rough' side (back side) of the leather. But, the reason I sand it the way I do, is because the result is MUCH softer and more uniform in texture (like velvet). Real suede leather is also fairly soft, but is less uniform across it's surface. All of the veg-tanned leather I have, and have looked at, is much coarser on the back (rough) side.
On the upside, leather is relatively inexpensive. It never hurts to try it different ways (top/smooth side, back/rough side, with and without different compounds, sanded or not). You might find a certain method/treatment/combination that you like.
Well thanks for all the help guys. I decided to try the "softer" leather and it works as well as I could expect. I did learn another thing tonight. I have my first real convex edges, a Bravo-1 and a Gunny. well, the Bravo-1 came relatively sharp, meaning it would slice paper ok but not shave hair. So I stropped and stropped and when that didn't work, I got out the 1500 and 2000 grit sandpaper. Well, that didnt help either. And of course I watched the hours of convex sharpening videos on youtube and knivesshipfree and they all mention "only use the weight of the blade" or the like which is what I was doing. Well I decided to actually give it some pressure and BAM! It was instantly sharper after the 2000, then did the same pressure on the black and green loaded leather and it shaves hair very nicely. So, either A-2 is a little harder steel than I'm used to sharpening (SR-101, SR-77, 1095, 5160) or my meaning of "weight of the blade" and theirs are completely different. I'm just hoping I didnt give it some sort of V-grind by accident???
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2007
- Messages
- 11,155
Without pressure there is no following of the curve, you did it right
Some blades need more pressure and some less, it all depends on your backing and the amount of convex shape you need to apply to the blade.
Good questions!! First off, we need to remember that there are 'natural silicates' that are present in the skin that come from the foods the animals have been eating. Eat more grass and get more natural silicates. This is why horsehide usually has more silicates than cowhide. Cows these days are generally force-fed to fatten them up for market, getting very little natural grasses in their diet.
Then there are chemical silicates that are used in the tanning process. Chemicals such as sodium aluminum silicate are used in the 'Chrome tanning process, but don't remain within the hide after it's finished. These silicates get washed out of the leather in the final production process.
As for why there can be more in the outer layer of skin... this comes from a process known as 'boning.' Leather starts out with natural silicates all through it. Rubbing the leather with a rounded end of a stick (like a 'souvenir' baseball bat or, as was used, the end of the thigh bone of a cow,) while it's damp and pliable will force more of the natural silicates to the surface. This process used to take days of hard hand labor and produced the fine 'Russian Leather' (the name of the process, not the location) barber strops. Today you can expect to pay in excess of $100 US for a high quality horsehide strop which has been machine 'boned.' You can really feel the difference when you put a blade to leather like this. It almost grabs the metal as you strop.
The majority of razor strops today are not boned. The leather IS treated, but treated for longevity, not to make it more grippy. Mink oil, Lexol, etc., any good leather conditioner will work. The leather found in the bench strops sold by woodworking and knife shops most likely hasn't had ANY treatment at all! It just plain vegetable tanned leather glued to a block of wood. You can make one just as good for 1/4 the price. If you're going to use any kind of compound on the leather, buy the cheapest piece you can get that is still flat and smooth. With compound, it doesn't even need to be vegetable tanned. In fact, with compound it doesn't even need to be leather.
The ONLY reason to use leather as a strop is for the natural silicates which are smaller and finer than compounds. If you want a leather strop that REALLY does what a strop is supposed to do, get a nice piece of cordovan horsehide cut from the 'shell' of the hide. Once you use a strop like that, you will never use anything else again. You really have to 'drag' the knife across horsehide. It doesn't slide...
But you have to remember... a 'good' strop is the final step. Compound is a step before a 'good' strop.
Stitchawl
Greetings Stitchawl: Thanks for the information. I learned something today ~ so it wasn't a total loss. Looks like only my old Russian leather strops have the silicates concentrated on the surface. Does the hard rolled horse butt leather, I got from Hand American, have any appreciably higher amount of surface silicates ? If not, I'll use the diamond spray on it and just use the Russian leather for final stropping. Thanks again. OldDude1
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2009
- Messages
- 13,393
Thanks stitchawl. Once again, I've learned something new here. It's why I like hangin' around here so much. :thumbup:
I'm encouraged by your comments, regarding being able to make a good strop from veg-tanned leather for much cheaper than buying one. I've been 'experimenting' with this for a little while now. My best strops so far, have come from a piece of veg-tanned hide I picked up at my local Tandy shop. I think it's about 4 - 5 oz. weight. Got about 5.5 sq. ft. of it for about $17.00. I've been cutting strips from it to fit some 2.5" wide oak (1/2" thick), picked up at Home Depot. I use two of these strops, one with green compound first, then finish with the other without compound (but sanded, as I described earlier). Thus far, these two strops have really worked well for me. I'll still be experimenting with other variations as time goes on. Haven't tried any horsehide yet, but I'll likely get around to it eventually.
Thanks again.
I'm encouraged by your comments, regarding being able to make a good strop from veg-tanned leather for much cheaper than buying one. I've been 'experimenting' with this for a little while now. My best strops so far, have come from a piece of veg-tanned hide I picked up at my local Tandy shop. I think it's about 4 - 5 oz. weight. Got about 5.5 sq. ft. of it for about $17.00. I've been cutting strips from it to fit some 2.5" wide oak (1/2" thick), picked up at Home Depot. I use two of these strops, one with green compound first, then finish with the other without compound (but sanded, as I described earlier). Thus far, these two strops have really worked well for me. I'll still be experimenting with other variations as time goes on. Haven't tried any horsehide yet, but I'll likely get around to it eventually.
Thanks again.
Last edited:
Well I made a strop with the veg. tanned stuff and I'm gonna try your sanding method as it sounds interesting. Thanks for the tip:thumbup:
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2009
- Messages
- 13,393
Good luck. When you sand the leather, go light & easy. I wrap a piece of sandpaper around a small wooden block (like a piece of 1" x 2", for example), and sand in a somewhat circular motion. You'll almost immediately begin to see the 'nap' form on the surface. It really will take on a 'velvety' appearance. If you run your fingertip across it, it'll leave a 'light' streak in one direction, then it'll turn 'dark' when you rub the other way. Sort of like the streaks left in a carpet when vacuuming, or on the lawn when mowing. The leather 'dust' left by the sanding will clean up very easily with a little vacuuming afterwards.
Have fun!
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2007
- Messages
- 11,155
Depends, the russian strop could be equal or higher. I have a very old one that I tried before refinishing and it did a amazing job but so does my horse leather. I had no choice in the refinishing and it is now coated in 0.5 micron diamond compound. Even though its coated with a abrasive it still performs in ways a bench strop can't compare to, can't really explain it but it leaves a finer/better edge and not surprising one that shaves better.
To best tell the difference between the strops polish a edge to at least 1 micron first. The natural abrasive in the strop is extremely fine and will produce the smoothest of edges but the edge must be fine to begin with.
Horsehide will almost ALWAYS have a greater silicate level than commercial cowhide, just due to the diet of the two animals. Unless your cowhide came from old Bossy who only grazed green grass in the North 40 for most of her life, cows for 'production,' (meat, bone, blood, leather) have been feed various grains to fatten them up quickly for slaughter. It's the silicates found in ordinary green plants that the horses graze upon that make the leather so much better than cowhide. "Boning" that leather makes it an even better strop!
Put your diamonds on anything. No need to waste good leather for that. The silicates in ordinary veg-tanned cowhide are smaller than any diamond spray, allowing for a much sharper edge. But... and this is important... the diamond compound will cut faster than silicates.
You can always improve the cutting action of veg-tanned leather by 'boning' it yourself. Before you mount the leather on a bench block, wet it down well (run warm water over it for 15-20 seconds, front and back) then let is sit for an hour or two until you notice that the surface is just beginning to change back to its original color. (The leather at this point will mold almost like modeling clay.) Then using a heavy rolling pin or a steel pipe (if you use a steel pipe cover it with a sheet of plastic or your leather will discolor) and roll the heck out of it for an hour or two! Really bear down on the leather. You will get better results if you use the rounded end of a dowel, souvenir baseball bat, or even a baseball itself. This is what is done in the boning process. It will force the silicates to migrate to the surface of the leather. After you're finished, allow the leather to dry completely, give it a treatment with your favorite leather conditioner (used sparingly) and mount on a bench block or turn into a hanging strop. You will see a BIIIIG difference between your treated strop and new leather.
You will see an even BIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGERRRR difference using good horsehide. Once you use 'good' horsehide, you will never want to go back to cowhide for your final stropping!
Stitchawl
Thanks Knifenut.
"To best tell the difference between the strops polish a edge to at least 1 micron first. The natural abrasive in the strop is extremely fine and will produce the smoothest of edges but the edge must be fine to begin with."
I'll give it a try Mr. B and hopefully with my limited skill, will be able to tell the difference. OldDude1
"To best tell the difference between the strops polish a edge to at least 1 micron first. The natural abrasive in the strop is extremely fine and will produce the smoothest of edges but the edge must be fine to begin with."
I'll give it a try Mr. B and hopefully with my limited skill, will be able to tell the difference. OldDude1
Most people forget that stropping is the final step in sharpening. Notice that a barber only strops his razor several times before shaving a customer, not several minutes...
We've changed that a bit with our ultra-fine compounds, so now stropping makes up the last 'few' steps in the sharpening process. Going from a 12,000 grit waterstone to CrO2 (about 60,000) actually is quite a big jump, so it requires a longer stropping time to polish the edge to the CrO2 level. (Using a compound that cuts faster reduces the time needed for that polish.) Putting it on a bare leather strop at THAT point will reduce the stropping time needed, compared, lets say, to the time to jump from a 12000 grit stone to bare leather. Using the intermediate steps reduces the stropping time needed for the next step.
Stitchawl