Hard use/wilderness knives and hollow grinds

S

STAGE 2

Joined
Oct 11, 2005
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What do you folks think of hollow grinds on hard use/wilderness knives. I was under the impression that they are frowned upon since they are fragile. However, I recently saw this..

http://www.sibertknives.com/pages/scout.htm

As far as I know, sibert knives have a reputation of being extremely tough, and he puts hollow grinds on all his knives. So what do you folks think of this type of grind on a wilderness knife?
 
I don't know about how tough they are..I have had a failure in a cheap hollow ground chopper..but that could have been the steel...but I often think about the life of the knife..I have worn down hollow ground pocket knives by being a little over eager on the sharpening stone..maybe others will see things differently, but I think flat ground knives last longer.
 
Stage 2,

The grind is only part of the equation. There's heat treat, intended use, preference, etc. that also come into play, plus much more. On a chopper, I'd shy away from a hollow ground blade, because of the possible weakness. Again, it depends on how you use it - you have to adjust the way you use a knife to take advantage of its strengths and avoid its weaknesses.

That all said, the Sibert looks quite stout and solid. Shane is known for making great user knives, so I'd be inclined to use that one myself, and if it speaks to you, then buy it!
 
You know, my 8" kabar tanto has a ~hollowgrind, but its been fine, and Ive beat the crap outa it.
 
where's dan kolster on this one he has a great chart of type of grind on his site he would have a good answer. sorry if i misspelled his name.
 
I think binding would also be an issue with hollow grind as well. Think about chopping with a tomahawk vs a flat grind hacket.
 
That knife is outrageously overpriced for what it is. You could buy at least four Fallkniven's (F1, H1, S1, A1) for the same price he is charging for what is basically a slightly tweaked Buck 119.

Not only that but the steel he uses (CPM S30V) has been known to chip on smaller knives, so you can imagine what would happen on the thin hollow ground edge of a 6 inch fixed blade.
 
A hollow ground blade doesn't mean the knife or its edge will be weaker.

It all has to do with where the grinds meet and how much material is left at the edge.

I have a large, (14" Blade) custom made machete type knife which is hollow ground but has a pretty thick convex edge. The hollow grind was specified due to the thickness of stock, 1/4", and the massiveness of the knife, as more material is removed during hollow grinding than flat grinding and the overall weight can be diminished in this way, without compromising strength.

As for binding, the thickness of the edge has more to do with it than the general grind format, although in my experience, a flat ground knife binds the worst especially if it has a thin edge.

If you come across a hollow ground knife, check out the thickness of the edge to determine the burliness of the blade. If there is lots of material left, it's going to be plenty strong, all things being equal:).
 
As for binding, the thickness of the edge has more to do with it than the general grind format, although in my experience, a flat ground knife binds the worst especially if it has a thin edge.
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Professional butchers use thin, flat ground knives wuith thin edges to cut up large chunks of meat. Seems to work for them.

Webster Marble placed a large fuller behind a fairly robust, convexed edge in his "Ideal" Model. The fuller was supposed to cause the blade to glide through thick cuts of meat. (Marble's design was misunderstood by the designers of the "Ka-Bar" who place the fuller well away from the edge.)
 
Its been my experience that with good steel hollow ground blades are usually very good for slicing and butchering game due to the very thin profile of the blade behind the cutting edge.they cut like a lazer, they are not the best choice as a chopper but with some care will work well as a utility blade for trap triggers or making fuzz sticks or speer points ect.
 
Not sure exactly what you mean by "I was under the impression that they are frowned upon since they are fragile"
I designed the Outdoorsman with Justin Gingrich to have a hollow grind ATS-34 1/4" thick blade. It's not going to be the very best chopper but it will chop. More importantly, it compromises absolute stiffness for a rock solid spine and a better flesh cutting profile from the hollow to the edge. In truth, I'm now convinced that scandi grinds beat all for survival, but that's another story.
Outdoorsman.jpg

RKOD_1.jpg
 
Moodino, I keep seeing you posting that knife. Is that just a custom you designed or is it something going into production?
 
Brian Jones said:
On a chopper, I'd shy away from a hollow ground blade, because of the possible weakness. Again, it depends on how you use it - you have to adjust the way you use a knife to take advantage of its strengths and avoid its weaknesses.
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I don't do much chopping with my knifes. I usually have a folding saw or hatchet with me. However I like the feeling of being able to use it in a pinch. I've just heard about people folding edges and such with hollow ground knives and it makes me wary. I'd hate to shell out that much scratch only to be paranoid about actually ever using the darned thing, or actually messing up the edge.
 
A convex edge will bind more than hollow ground because the edge gets thicker much sooner. The hollow ground edge will penetrate wood much more efficiently. As said above, you need the right steel and heat treat for the job though. You also have to be more careful to avoid twisting/prying. Try it sometime with similar-profiled knives where the edges are beveled differently. You'll be surprised at how efficient the hollow ground edges are. I did this clearing brush to make shooting lanes at a range. We had about 30 volunteers, all with at least 1 knife (bowies, kukhris, etc.), and the difference was unbelievable. Cutting efficiency is much better with the hollow grinds.
 
I'm not in to hollow grinds. I like convex edges the best as they're the strongest, and the easiest to sharpen.

It is, as in all knife related choices, a highly task oriented personal choice. Luckily, if you like hollow grinds most knives today sport them, so you have no worries about choice.

At blade show in Atlanta every year I'm suprised to see that 80-90% of the knives are hollow ground. :yawn:

But hey, to each his own.

RobbW said:
A convex edge will bind more than hollow ground because the edge gets thicker much sooner. The hollow ground edge will penetrate wood much more efficiently.

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Cutting efficiency is much better with the hollow grinds.
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I will disagree with these statements. Convex edges are known to bind the least of the three. Thats one of the major benefits of using one. Cutting efficiency of a convex is reputed to be comparable without binding, too, and it is the strongest edge form. The thickness of the edge itself on either grind is going to play a big part.

http://www.kosterknives.com/convexedge.htm

You get the durability of a wide bevel angle without wedging or sticking.

"It's all about material separation." - Jerry Fisk, Moran Hammer-In, 2003

It's been said that a "smaller bevel angle" can cut better, but is more fragile; while a "larger bevel angle" lasts longer, but won't slice as finely. This all becomes moot when utilizing the convex edge. Essentially, you get the best of both worlds - edge retention as well as fine cutting. Knifemakers have been putting convex edges on knives for hundreds, even thousands of years. Only since the advent of machine-made knives, has the convex edge dropped in popularity. But lately, it has been making a roaring comeback...
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Also here:

http://home.nycap.rr.com/sosak/convex.htm

Another advantage of the convex ground blade is shear cutting efficiency. A convex grind tends to act as a wedge, parting the material being cut, thus reducing friction or drag created by the material. Convex ground knives will tend to be much more efficient at deep cuts than knives with v-grind secondary bevels of similar thickness, with less binding on the substrate.
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We're talking chopping wood, or mostly chopping, right? That's the impression I get from the tone of most of the posts anyway.

I certainly recognize that technique and materials make a huge difference. What I've noticed clearing brush and small trees with knives is that with a similar size/weight/force of swing, the hollow-ground knives cut deeper (more efficiently?). Maybe folks experience this deeper cut as binding more and that's where the difference lies?

I've also noticed that if I swing the knives to penetrate to the same depth, I don't feel the hollow-ground knives bind any more than flat or convex grinds. Maybe the efficiency of penetrating wood more deeply causes some to experience hollow grinds as binding more? I know I'm careful about torque with hollow grinds. Either way I'll admit my experience may be different from yours, but it is definitely my experience.
 
Its no big deal. I just disagree. It happens.

I agree that hollow grinds, having the thinnest cross section, penetrate better, and slice better, all other things equal. IMO, this benefit is minimal though.

But the binding I disagree on. And having the least steel in corss section makes that grind the weakest, all other things equal.

As I said above though, its by far the most popular grind, so you hollow grind guys are lucky. Your choices in the knifemaker crowd are virtually limitless.
 
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