Hardcore Hatchets (made in USA)

[--J]

This partial quote was from Rick at Hardcore Hatchets that I partially excerpted from Double Ott's post.

?...We use 1080 Steel, and we aim for about 55RC on the bit. The polls end up about 40-45RC...

Thanks for relaying their answer .00, that's exactly what I was looking for. The Rc 40 possibility isn't great, but as long as you're not pounding nails too often it should be ok. Although I guess the poll could be hardened a little more if it starts to mushroom.
Other than that it sounds like the wood's moisture content may be a little high when they put the handle on those, and when they go to a dryer part of the country they fail. Hopefully they get a handle on that...(sorry).

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

From the assemblies of anecdotes I have read, the crosscut came into to more widespread use right around 1900. This should correspond with the degradation of the closest thing to "perfection" axes have ever come to. In my opinion, it does.

Racers will pick the most efficient design for chopping with a rare piece of perfect softwood as fast as possible, with a long break in between work. I don't mean to chastise competitive choppers, and I think there is a lot to learn from them. That does not change the fact that competitive chopping places value in different balances of mechanical functions than normal use. Peter wrote this as response to one of my probably over zealous pries to try and get a good discussion going, speaking of Tom Clark: "Given his evident passion for the craft, and practically the whole range of wood splitting tools presumably at his disposal, why did he settle on a 4 1/4 lb. ax instead of a maul??" ....For what its worth, Tom also used a straight handle with a generous swell that still put the line of grip just forward of the eye from what I can tell.

The swell is not what Cook, Vido, myself and a plethora of old time handle carvers are saying or implying is bad. you can have a large comfortable swell without throwing the line of the grip end way off. Peter even stated while debating Ross/Woodtrekker that European axes with straight handles and no swells were inferior to what he considered the gold standard over here (paraphrasing there). A comfortable swell and grip is very important and not at all what I am steadfastly against here-- I have made straight handles with little swell and found them very unergonomic to use. I still maintain that an excessive (<--- important point) curve that throws the line of the grip (or rotational axis, a term this self described intentional ignoramus does not particularly like) off behind the poll at an angle makes an axe clumsy, less accurate, and feels like it wants to chop into the ground/my foot.

Having spent hundreds of hours carving and contemplating handles, most of which were promptly left in the corner/sawn off, I have my preferences. I encourage others to try to nurse the same positive, instead of negative, outlook on deciding preference. If you have tried a straight handle and didn't like it, try carving your own with a different well, offset, or even knob end curve (gasp). No amount of science or physics (all of which are of the theoretical variety to me) will ever explain the how and why of what just "feels" right (convincingly, to me anyway).

Sorry if my posts come across as pointed. that wasnt the intent.

Good post, dude.

 

[Square_peg]

I am afraid I dont quite understand how a curve at the end of a handle facilitates a more relaxed grip. Or more comfortable, for that matter. I have heard people say that it positions your wrist differently, which it obviously does, but after handling numerous axes with different handles, as well as carving and using 20+ of my own, I never noticed it.

It's not the curve but the full fawn's foot that facilitates the more relaxed grip. It fits the palm better. The curved handle reduces the work of the wrist flexor muscles. With a straight handle you have to tip your wrist down lower. It puts the work in the far end of the flexor muscles range of motion. The curved handle puts the work in the center of its range of motion. The muscle is inherently stronger when used this way. The difference may not show up until some quantity of work has been performed.

Again, I don't know if a straight handle really is more accurate or not. I'm not aware of any tests ever performed on axe handle accuracy. All I've seen is Dudley Cooks assertions repeated by others. I don't know if the ergonomic advantages of a curved handle and full fawn's foot outweigh the suggested greater accuracy of a straight handle. All I can say is to pick what works for you and enjoy it.

 

[thunderstick]

I would like to see some hard evidence that the axe "degraded" into a curved handle in the early 1900s with the introduction of the crosscut--when logging was in its boom of production. This reminds me more of a theory that was created to support a presupposition. Even after the introduction of the crosscut saw, the links I provided, and other sources indicate that the axe was used to fell 1/2 of the trees up to the 1950s--till the chainsaw became a more efficient and reliable tool. In the Northeast the axe remained the main feller till the chainsaw took over. It certainly was used for limbing until smaller and well-balanced chainsaws were manufactured. All of these facts would actually show the axe continued to improve in design, geometry, and metallurgy until the chainsaw began to render it obsolete to professionals. I think it can be supported that the chainsaw brought the degradation of the axe and rendered it largely to the realm of a splitting tool. A lot less design and metallurgy is needed for a tool that just occasionally splits wood. It certainly stands to reason that when fellers were paid piece rate they would pick the best design to facilitate the best wage and the manufacturers making the most efficient tools were getting the most market share.

I agree that in the end the "feel" of what is right is subjective and each user should pick what "feels" right to them based on their usage. However I believe that the facts of history would show that professional loggers preferred moderately curved handles over a straight one and that this design proved more efficient for their usage. This again is proven today by the competitive choppers.

Personally I give less credence to the weekend bushcrafters when their observations depart from what can be learned by both loggers of the past and currently competitive professionals.

 

[G-pig]

It's not the curve but the full fawn's foot that facilitates the more relaxed grip. It fits the palm better. The curved handle reduces the work of the wrist flexor muscles. With a straight handle you have to tip your wrist down lower. It puts the work in the far end of the flexor muscles range of motion. The curved handle puts the work in the center of its range of motion. The muscle is inherently stronger when used this way. The difference may not show up until some quantity of work has been performed.

Again, I don't know if a straight handle really is more accurate or not. I'm not aware of any tests ever performed on axe handle accuracy. All I've seen is Dudley Cooks assertions repeated by others. I don't know if the ergonomic advantages of a curved handle and full fawn's foot outweigh the suggested greater accuracy of a straight handle. All I can say is to pick what works for you and enjoy it.

Couldn't the flexor be considered a perk for the "occasional" user in the same vein? You firstly dont need to subject the muscles to undue "stress", but secondly, you dont need to change your chopping techniques to accommodate the different balance of the axe. I definitely notice what you are saying with one of my offset handles vs. a curved handle (currently, my Wetterlings is the other one I would consider really excessively curved). I've never had any problems using them, but I change my stance to my target with the different axes. If the flexor is stressed only at the end of a stroke, bring the target forward in the stance perhaps. The open or closedness of the hang is also really important here since that dictates how the axe is presented at an angle. Probably the length of the handle is a factor too. I'll have to take some videos scoring timbers sometime, since this is a good example of exactly what we are talking about here.

 

[G-pig]

I would like to see some hard evidence that the axe "degraded" into a curved handle in the early 1900s with the introduction of the crosscut--when logging was in its boom of production. This reminds me more of a theory that was created to support a presupposition. Even after the introduction of the crosscut saw, the links I provided, and other sources indicate that the axe was used to fell 1/2 of the trees up to the 1950s--till the chainsaw became a more efficient and reliable tool. In the Northeast the axe remained the main feller till the chainsaw took over. It certainly was used for limbing until smaller and well-balanced chainsaws were manufactured. All of these facts would actually show the axe continued to improve in design, geometry, and metallurgy until the chainsaw began to render it obsolete to professionals. I think it can be supported that the chainsaw brought the degradation of the axe and rendered it largely to the realm of a splitting tool. A lot less design and metallurgy is needed for a tool that just occasionally splits wood. It certainly stands to reason that when fellers were paid piece rate they would pick the best design to facilitate the best wage and the manufacturers making the most efficient tools were getting the most market share.

At least according to my admittedly unreliable sources (a few books), there were logging operations in Maine right up till 1900 with only axes. No saws of any kind. I think its pretty reasonable to say that the skill of the axeman will take a hit when it goes from trees felled, bucked, limbed with axes to just felled and limbed. You can get away with pretty mediocre axe skills with a saw for bucking, I am a living testament to that.

 

[thunderstick]

Its also recorded history that in some of the Maine logging operations the axe remained the primary felling tool until the advent of the chainsaw. When you look at the old Snow and Neally axes made in Bangor Maine, the logging capital of the whole northeast, you can see the decided preference for moderately curved handle.

 

[halfaxe]

Interesting thread gentlemen. Two things come to mind to me in thinking about this, reading the sources, and in relation to my experience.

The double bit axe head is balanced in the center of the eye. The single bit somewhat forward of the eye, hence the forward sweep just below the eye to attempt to balance it.

The curve at the bottom above the swell keeps the bottom hand straight with the wrist and arm when chopping, especially right at the impact, therefore putting less stress on the joint. Think about it while you chop. With a straight handle on a single bit, with it's somewhat unbalanced head, would tend to fatigue the wrist joint after long chopping sessions, constantly hitting with the wrist cocked sideways. Splittling wood however with a straight handle on a single bit would not have this stress on the joint, since the wrist, hand, and arm are aligned on both sides of the body.

 

[thunderstick]

Excellent points--did not think of them...the curve at the end keeps the anchor hand in a comfortable natural position at horizontal impact when felling. The leading hand on a swing can be up a bit higher on the handle and into forward curve on the axe and is thus positioned a bit forward of the anchor hand for better control and power in the center of the axe balance line. The hand positions would also work together to create more mechanical advantage in the pivoting points of the swing--so you have an anchoring/pivoting hand in the natural wrist position and a power and control hand in the center of the forward balance point. Ideally the curve of the handle should coincide with the geometry/balance point of the head and the user should feel comfortable using that length of handle at its proper hand positioning points.

As mentioned the DB has a center balance and two usable sides so both hands would stay on a straight handle in the center of the balance for use of either bit.

I also agree that for splitting a straighter handle would be better so as not to torque the anchor wrist--thats obviously why splitting mauls are not made with curved handles.

 

[SR69]

Thread Ressurection Justification: Seeking Updates

Anyone here (or on the board in general) ever get their hands
on one of these hatchets and if so, what's the verdict?

 

[Scottman]

very cool !! :thumbup:

 

[SR69]

Well, for anyone who's interested, I'm ordering one of their
Hardcore Hatchets with a custom Gunstock finished straight handle.

 

[hhmoore]

I saw mention of heads coming unhung - decided to put my purchase on hold until I saw some long term reviews.

 

[SR69]

I didn't have it out of the package for 5 seconds before I started to
gear up to go outside and put it to work. And the verdict is in: I LOVE IT!

I'm glad I picked this puppy up! Nice balance, it slices through the work and
I even chopped a 4" log with it (not that this is going to be a chopper for me)
and it took hard chunks out easily. It's quick for processing down material and
for making pencil sized kindling. Made a quick attempt at a stake with it.

And, I even managed to featherstick a bit with her. It's a much better fit
for me than the Wetterlings because I've worked with hatchets for decades.
It was instantly familiar to me. I can't wait to spend more time with her.

 

[Clan Gunn]

SR69, update please! Also what are the pro's and con's to half-axes, Rigging axes,... There's been hardworking framers making a living with these, straight handles too. Are these to heavy for backpacking/hiking? By-the-way the Co. is working on another design.

 

[300Six]

At least with a hammer poll you know exactly what can be accomplished with that side of the head. Camping recently with a cheapie hatchet had me fit to be tied with having to use the rounded/sloped poll for setting metal tent pegs. That particular lousy little hatchet was Jack of all Trades and master of none.

 

[Clan Gunn]

Operator 1975 "Look just like the Plumbs you can get at flea markets for $5. I wonder how these would compare. I can smell a comparison thread coming on. Would be a good thread."

I'm up for a give-away! Ebay pricing is nuts.

Question, is the hardwood mixed with softwood or Hickory wood grain?

 

[Clan Gunn]

Double Ott, Rick Spencer, What is the "New design" you're working on??? Also how about a blade forums "Special" pricing.

Wonder how much the great photo's sell these?