Hardest knife to beat?

[pinnah]

Yet most who use regularly them don't, and if they lose theirs they often replace them. If I could only own one knife it would be a Vic SAK.

It is soft but as long as you don't use the handle to open bottle caps I don't see how this is a problem.
I have several mistreated second hand Pioneers and the handles are still good with only scratches. And no rust to be seen off course.

The SAKs are the most popular pocket knife in the world. But we should remember three things about that. First, the vast majority of SAK owners think that the paring knife they keep rattling around loose in their kitchen utensil drawer is sharp, even though it's dull as dirt. Second, the vast majority of SAK owners never sharpen any knife, including their SAK. Never ever. Not even pull it through a roller sharpener. Thrid, the SAK's blade is thin so it can still manage a workable cut even when it is dull as dirt. This third fact is a matter of geometry and says nothing about the quality of the steel.

The SAK Inox is a medium grade fine grained stainless. It's not terribly different in composition from Sandvic 12C27, 440A and 420HC. SAK reports that they harden their blades in the 56Rc range, which is on the soft end. In like manner, Case hardens their TruSharp (420HC) to around the same Rc. In contrast, Buck, Mora, Opinel and the old Schrade USA harden(ed) their comparable stainless in the 58Rc range.

IMO, this entirely changes things. At 58Rc, these steels begin to get decent edge retention and more importantly, they are less prone to keeping a stubborn wire edge when honing the edge.

SAKs are fine as gifts. You can give them to your cousin or work mate and they'll be happy enough with the blade (since they'll never, ever sharpen it, not even once).

But it's beyond me why somebody (like readers of this forum) who can eek out a manageable edge on a stone would willingly buy a knife with that soft Inox when makers like Buck, Mora and Opinel all produce comparatively priced knives with noticeably better heat treatment.

 

[jackknife]

I just went 18 days without saying this here but I *hate* Victorinox INOX. Super soft. Too soft. Forms burrs when you look at it.

Okay, I gotta finally call B.S. on this stuff. :grumpy:

I just finished trying to put a burr on a SAK, and failed. I opened up the knife, and stared as hard as I could at it. I stared until my eye's were watering. I even tried my best Clint Eastwood squint stare on it. I even tried staring through a magnifying glass at the blade edge.

No burr appeared!

Just razzing ya a bit.

Carl.

 

[leghog]

But it's beyond me why somebody (like readers of this forum) who can eek out a manageable edge on a stone would willingly buy a knife with that soft Inox when makers like Buck, Mora and Opinel all produce comparatively priced knives with noticeably better heat treatment.

Because as an EDC, SAKs are just plain hard to beat. SAKs do everything, and more, needed from an EDC.

You don't like them. I get that. Your choice. But many do like them. Even "knife people". Their choice. Best value for your buck out there. I'll continue to carry mine unapologetically.

 

[upnorth]

I'd say SAKs and Mora's are hard to beat. In fact they beat a lot of knives that are more expensive.

Isn't that the truth.

 

[leghog]

$13.47 at wallyworld's across the USA. That's what the Recruit now costs. That's value.

 

[pinnah]

Because as an EDC, SAKs are just plain hard to beat. SAKs do everything, and more, needed from an EDC.

There are two issues here. The utility of the camper/scout pattern and the performance of Victorinox's Inox. I agree completely about the utility of the basic camper/scout. I've owned at least one camper/scout for over 40 years, so I don't need to be convinced of that. In fact, I keep several Ulster BSA knives kicking around my shop bench and they get regular use.

But I don't concede the point on the quality of the steel. I would much rather have Ulster's old 1095 than Victorinox's Inox. But then, I'd rather have Buck's 420HC or Opinel's Inox over Victorinox's Inox too. It's a design choice on their part that doesn't work for me. If they would up the heat treat to get an Rc 58 or thereabouts (as Buck, Opinel and Mora do), they would solve the problem

You don't like them. I get that. Your choice. But many do like them. Even "knife people". Their choice. Best value for your buck out there. I'll continue to carry mine unapologetically.

If it works for you, don't let the fact that it doesn't work for me bother you. They are the best value for *your* buck, not mine.

BTW, we've ignored the other brand that I think needs to be on this list and that's Leatherman. They developed and perfected the multi-tool segment. Their Micra is the reason I've walked away from camper/scout patterns for utility.


edc-pair by Pinnah, on Flickr

Edited to add: I've destroyed something like 10 Victorinox Classics over the past 20 years. Scales fall off, blades wobble, scissors break. I've not yet had a Leatherman Micra fail in anyway for me. I've had to tune up the scissors after pushing them through horribly thick material but that's it. While I find the general utility of the Micra better than the Vic Classic, on durability points alone I think it's a better value by a long shot.

 

[pinnah]

Okay, I gotta finally call B.S. on this stuff. :grumpy:

I just finished trying to put a burr on a SAK, and failed. I opened up the knife, and stared as hard as I could at it. I stared until my eye's were watering. I even tried my best Clint Eastwood squint stare on it. I even tried staring through a magnifying glass at the blade edge.

No burr appeared!

Just razzing ya a bit.

Carl.

Shrug.

What can I say. Maybe I totally suck at sharpening. I have the same problem with Case's Tru Sharp, although not quite as bad. I've sharpened a fair number of Vics in my day, including a lot for friends and relatives. Compared to other steels, they form a burr very easily and seem to hold it tenaciously. At least for me (although I'm pretty sure I'm not alone).

Neither Buck's 420HC and Opinel's Inox present this problem for me.

NOTE: I like Buck's steel but I'm not suggesting any folding Bucks as a good value. I think the fixed blade Bucklite Max looks like a decent deal if one likes hollow ground blades (I don't).

 

[jackknife]

Shrug.

What can I say. Maybe I totally suck at sharpening. I have the same problem with Case's Tru Sharp, although not quite as bad. I've sharpened a fair number of Vics in my day, including a lot for friends and relatives. Compared to other steels, they form a burr very easily and seem to hold it tenaciously. At least for me (although I'm pretty sure I'm not alone).

Neither Buck's 420HC and Opinel's Inox present this problem for me.

NOTE: I like Buck's steel but I'm not suggesting any folding Bucks as a good value. I think the fixed blade Bucklite Max looks like a decent deal if one likes hollow ground blades (I don't).

You very well may have touched on the problem. You're sharpening, or whatever you're doing with the blades. I don't know what you are sharpening on, how much pressure you are using, nor what you are cutting that you never miss a chance to lambast SAK's. But it seems that your's is the only voice in the crowd yelling as stridently anti SAK messages as vocal as you do. I know that you do have a deep seated dislike of them, we get that by now. But with Victorinox being the worlds largest knife company, and having a history going back to 1890, I have serious doubt that Vic would have survived and prospered so well making junk. Usually on the international market, junk does not do well in the long run.

All stainless steel is gummy crap to deal with. I spent 30 years as a machinist, and we all hated the jobs that involved dealing with working stainless on the lathe or mill. And not all stainless is the same. Some are worse that others. But since 1969 when I got my first SAK, I haven't had any problem with mutant burr's or anything else that kept me from getting it very sharp, very fast. I've even had the same classic now for several years, and I touch it up once in a while on the small diamond hone I keep in my wallet. I just use a gentle touch on the hone, give it a lick and a promise on the black of my Dickies work belt, and it shaves with no problem, and no burr.

Since Victorinox, in their infinite wisdom that we're not in on, choose to only take their blades to R56, maybe you just need to lighten up on your pressure on the stone, hone, or whatever you are sharpening on. Also, most stainless steels fair better with a course or medium edge. Polished edges are good for show off hair whittling, but breaking down a cardboard box, cutting some dirty twine off plants in the garden, or cutting off the end of a tube of caulk, do not do near as well as an edge right off a rough old style 'carborundum' stone as we called it in the old days. A silica oxide stone. Since I went back to that stone with all my stainless knives, my edges last longer, and cut more aggressively.

If you are having such bad luck with Vic stainless, try altering your treatment of it. You may fond out why the rest of the world, including a large number of chef's with Victorinox/Forschner knives, like them.

Old course stone that works very well on Vic's.

 

[sogbowie]

For the price, my Ontario Rat 1 beats out my opinel and Mora. ymmv

 

[leghog]

I've yet to have a problem sharpening any SAKs or Case SS, and I have but the same simple tools I've used for about 30 years. A small DMT coarse and a hard Arkansas (and the cardboard on the back of a writing pad for a strop if needed). Vic and Case stainless steels are fine for what an EDC should be.

 

[the kid]

The SAKs are the most popular pocket knife in the world. But we should remember three things about that. First, the vast majority of SAK owners think that the paring knife they keep rattling around loose in their kitchen utensil drawer is sharp, even though it's dull as dirt. Second, the vast majority of SAK owners never sharpen any knife, including their SAK. Never ever. Not even pull it through a roller sharpener. Thrid, the SAK's blade is thin so it can still manage a workable cut even when it is dull as dirt. This third fact is a matter of geometry and says nothing about the quality of the steel.

The SAK Inox is a medium grade fine grained stainless. It's not terribly different in composition from Sandvic 12C27, 440A and 420HC. SAK reports that they harden their blades in the 56Rc range, which is on the soft end. In like manner, Case hardens their TruSharp (420HC) to around the same Rc. In contrast, Buck, Mora, Opinel and the old Schrade USA harden(ed) their comparable stainless in the 58Rc range.

IMO, this entirely changes things. At 58Rc, these steels begin to get decent edge retention and more importantly, they are less prone to keeping a stubborn wire edge when honing the edge.

SAKs are fine as gifts. You can give them to your cousin or work mate and they'll be happy enough with the blade (since they'll never, ever sharpen it, not even once).

But it's beyond me why somebody (like readers of this forum) who can eek out a manageable edge on a stone would willingly buy a knife with that soft Inox when makers like Buck, Mora and Opinel all produce comparatively priced knives with noticeably better heat treatment.

I thought you were talking about the handle material ALOX. The reason I prefer a Victorinox over an Opinel or whatever is because it has these useful tools AND a knife. I use my screwdrivers on my Pioneer more then the blade.
Although lately I've been carrying a single blade knife again and keep a Victorinox in several rooms in the house just in case. And in my coat. And keychain.

 

[Murky Depth]

If you don't mind heavy, beastly folders, ZT 0200KW.... This thing is flawless. As good or better fit & finish than many customs, and it's $120.

 

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I'd say the Buck Vantage Pro is also very good value. S30V is a solid steel, and the Buck is one of the cheapest ways to get it.

 

[mantzao]

Enlan el-01 is hard to beat for a "modern" knife under $20

a big +1 on that

 

[pinnah]

You very well may have touched on the problem. You're sharpening, or whatever you're doing with the blades.

I'm happy to concede the point on my sharpening skills, such as they are. And happy to give credit where credit is due to people like you with sharpening skills so good that you don't have a problem with the stuff. I struggle with their Inox and with Case's Tru Sharp. When I sought help in the Maintenance forum, I found out that I wasn't alone on this.

All stainless steel is gummy crap to deal with. I spent 30 years as a machinist, and we all hated the jobs that involved dealing with working stainless on the lathe or mill. And not all stainless is the same. Some are worse that others.

We agree on this. My point exactly, in fact.

My understanding is that heat treatment is one significant factor in how different stainless steels will perform. Specifically, the same steel can be significantly more or less gummy depending on the heat treatment. Case's Tru-Sharp (420HC at 56Rc) and Buck's 420HC (58Rc) provide a good head/head example of this effect. Same steels. Different heat treatments. Different sharpening behavior. Do you disagree with this?

....that you never miss a chance to lambast SAK's. But it seems that your's is the only voice in the crowd yelling as stridently anti SAK messages as vocal as you do. I know that you do have a deep seated dislike of them, we get that by now.

Knives get mentioned and then discussed. People report their experiences with them. Some pro. Some con.

Does my reporting of bad experiences with Victorinox knives upsets you? That's not the intent.

But with Victorinox being the worlds largest knife company, and having a history going back to 1890, I have serious doubt that Vic would have survived and prospered so well making junk. Usually on the international market, junk does not do well in the long run.

Plenty of "junk" is a commercial success. And the fact that they're a commercial success doesn't make their blades any better or the knives last longer (for me, anyway). I know you don't like me saying this, but my experience (and perhaps my experience alone) is that Opinels and Leatherman products outlast the Victorinox products I've owned. It's not even close.

Look, I'm glad people like Victorinox knives. The camper/scout pattern is wonderfully useful and Victorinox was smart enough to not allow the pattern to languish as a purely traditional pattern the way that Schrade/Ulster, Camillus and many of the US makers of campers did. Victorinox also beat the pants off of everybody else in the niche by continuously modernizing their production and for leveraging their success to be a global brand. It's really a case study in consumer product mastery and branding success.

But I'm an engineer who did his time in marketing departments. I understand the difference. Victorinox Inox at 56Rc is gummy. Gummier than 12c27 or 420HC at 58Rc. Victorinox knives I've owned have all failed. No Opinel and no Leatherman I've owned has.

 

[leghog]

Plenty of "junk" is a commercial success. And the fact that they're a commercial success doesn't make their blades any better or the knives last longer (for me, anyway). I know you don't like me saying this, but my experience (and perhaps my experience alone) is that Opinels and Leatherman products outlast the Victorinox products I've owned. It's not even close.

Yet SAKs aren't junk, which is probably why my ~40 year old Opinel (non-junk too) hasn't been carried in decades and my Leatherman Surge (more non-junk) was replaced by a SAK on the belt. Somewhere lost in the house over the last year is a SAK I was given used 21 years ago and which I subsequently took in my kit on all my travels over much of the world (can't wait until I find it again --- In January I want to give it back to the gifter who I haven't seen since 1992 in Cambodia when he gave me that knife). We each make our choices. Let's just be glad about the diversity of options to choose from these days.

 

[jackknife]

My understanding is that heat treatment is one significant factor in how different stainless steels will perform. Specifically, the same steel can be significantly more or less gummy depending on the heat treatment. Case's Tru-Sharp (420HC at 56Rc) and Buck's 420HC (58Rc) provide a good head/head example of this effect. Same steels. Different heat treatments. Different sharpening behavior. Do you disagree with this?

Yes, I disagree very much so.

The actual composition of the steel is the over riding factor that will determine the gumminess. Nickel is a mutha on tools. Stringy, tough, causes long stringy burrs that won't break off easy and wrap around the tool post on a lathe. Some of the stainless that I had to machine was the 303 and 304 series, and they were hell on tooling and operators. The 400 series was a dream to work by comparison. Look at the nickel content and get some experience on a mill and lathe, and then tell me the RC has something to do with it. Some stainless has higher chrome content, and that affects how it works up. The RC has so little to do with it, it ain't even in the ball park. Do you really think just a point or two will affect how it works???

If you find one stainless that is gummy, I'll lay a steak dinner that it has a higher nickel content. Nickel adds toughness. It eats up drill bits and end mills, and leaves a burr you won't believe. Look up the steels in the Machinists handbook and it will point out and describe the different properties. It can vary with just a small change in the make up of it. I spent too many years in the shop to think a point on the RC scale will affect how it works. Between 56 and 58 is not that big a jump to affect machining characteristics of a steel. What it's made of will. When you talk about Buck's 420HC, and 12C27, and then Vic's Inox, you're talking about three different steels with three different list of ingredients. They will react in a different way.

Victorinox knives I've owned have all failed. No Opinel and no Leatherman I've owned has.

I know, you keep telling us that. A lot. Your milage seems to differ from others. However, my own milage seems to run different, as well as many others here. I have a Leatherman wave that I found by the side of the road. It had a knife blade broken off, and the phillips was stripped off. It seems like that owner of that tool had his own milage experience. On the other hand I've used a Vic classic for all kinds of small repairs, yet you claim to have trashed 10 of them. And yet...you keep buying them. Hmmm. It's a free country, carry what you like, it just gets tiresome when one guy carries on a crusade. It's clear you have some sort of personal grudge when it comes to SAK's.

Carl.

 

[Allen R.]

Be careful trying to beat a blade, you may get cut..... ... Sorry I had to.

 

[pinnah]

The RC has so little to do with it, it ain't even in the ball park. Do you really think just a point or two will affect how it works???
(snip...)
When you talk about Buck's 420HC, and 12C27, and then Vic's Inox, you're talking about three different steels with three different list of ingredients.

Like I said in my previous post, the most telling example for me is Case's Tru Sharp and Buck's 420HC.

Same steel (420HC). Different heat treatment. Different Rc (56 vs 58). Different experience in both sharpening and edge retention.

Can you explain this?

I know, you keep telling us that. A lot.

No, Carl. I say it. Period. Not a lot. No more than what you say in praise of them.

yet you claim to have trashed 10 of them. And yet...you keep buying them. Hmmm.

The vast majority were given to me as gifts and corporate give-aways (a big part of Victorinox's business).

It's a free country, carry what you like, it just gets tiresome when one guy carries on a crusade. It's clear you have some sort of personal grudge when it comes to SAK's.

Carl, we agree on so much. Please don't personalize this with me. I could just as easily call you as a tiresome fanboy, but I won't because it's counter productive. I've reported my experiences with them. Nothing more. Nothing less.

You might ask yourself why you find it tiresome or irksome or otherwise so upsetting. I find your posts generally wonderful to read and hope we could drink together. Please don't personalize this. I don't want that.

 

[the kid]

Edited to add: I've destroyed something like 10 Victorinox Classics over the past 20 years. Scales fall off, blades wobble, scissors break. I've not yet had a Leatherman Micra fail in anyway for me. I've had to tune up the scissors after pushing them through horribly thick material but that's it. While I find the general utility of the Micra better than the Vic Classic, on durability points alone I think it's a better value by a long shot.

I can't take your rant against Victorinox serious if you're comparing a tiny keychain Classic with a Leatherman Micra..
It's not even in the same league. The Classic is much much smaller and much cheaper. And blade wobble and breaking scissors? I think you expect to much of them. They are really only for very light tasks.

I actually was a little disappointed when I viewed a keychain Victorinox for the first time, I was expecting something a bit more sturdy with a bigger blade but your comparison doesn't make sense.
It would make more sense comparing the Micra to a Cadet. And then the Micra would still be MUCH bigger to carry.