Perhaps I now finally know why the steel Rolex cases (304L) are more expensive than cases of other steel (even Rolex).
Thanks.
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Hardest knife to beat?
- Thread starter Thisisit
- Start date
Thanks.
Man, that stuff is living hell to work. The burrs just string out, and even with a chip brush, they don't want to let go. It's been know to wrap around the chip brush and pull it out of your hand. But if you cut in, back out, then cut in again to keep the burr small, the damm stuff work hardens as your working it. You need a good gush of coolent on the part, and then the burr will string out and whip around and splash coolant around. Then the tools got dull in record time, and you had to stop to regrind the tool in the machine. PITA!!!!
There was an article in one of the gun rags on how difficult it was at Smith and Wesson when they first started to make stainless revolvers. A normal carbon steel cylinder for the J frame chiefs special, which was the very first stainless handgun, used a new boring tool for about 50 to 60 cylinders. These were the 5 shot cylinders for the blued model 36. When they bored out the cylinder for the stainless model 60, tooling only got 6 to 7 cylinders bored out before the tooling was trashed. That's why the model 60 was twice the cost of the blued model 36. Same gun, one carbon steel, one stainless. One was twice the PITA to make because of tool destruction.
I think the case on my Timex Expedition is cast plastic. Probably injection molded in a second or two.
A couple of things:
My SAKs take a razor sharp edge. A few licks on my mini croc sticks and a little stropping, and they're good to go. It's funny, because the croc sticks don't work great for anything else. As for edge holding, it may be less apt than other knives, but given the ease of re-sharpening, I don't begrudge the inox. Also, most SAK owners are not knife nuts who constantly check the sharpness of their edge. Because of blade geometry, SAKs still cut well when dulled. I know people who've NEVER sharpened their SAK and use the knife for over a decade.
As for the strength of the Classic, the first one I purchased was pretty beat up. I paid $3, shipped to my door. The blade wobbled and tips of the scissors were bent. Guess what, the thing had lived just half its useful lifespan. I touched up the blade and it cut like a champ. The blade play didn't really impact actual use. The scissors still cut a perfect line in paper, with no tearing at the tip. I've used the scissors to cut zip ties and all 10 of my fingernails. They hold up great.
I've owned some crappy things in my life; SAKs aren't one of them.
My SAKs take a razor sharp edge. A few licks on my mini croc sticks and a little stropping, and they're good to go. It's funny, because the croc sticks don't work great for anything else. As for edge holding, it may be less apt than other knives, but given the ease of re-sharpening, I don't begrudge the inox. Also, most SAK owners are not knife nuts who constantly check the sharpness of their edge. Because of blade geometry, SAKs still cut well when dulled. I know people who've NEVER sharpened their SAK and use the knife for over a decade.
As for the strength of the Classic, the first one I purchased was pretty beat up. I paid $3, shipped to my door. The blade wobbled and tips of the scissors were bent. Guess what, the thing had lived just half its useful lifespan. I touched up the blade and it cut like a champ. The blade play didn't really impact actual use. The scissors still cut a perfect line in paper, with no tearing at the tip. I've used the scissors to cut zip ties and all 10 of my fingernails. They hold up great.
I've owned some crappy things in my life; SAKs aren't one of them.
With respect to Victorinox Inox, I had forgotten how soft it is. Found the following from the archives. Data attributed to 2008 Victorinox publication putting their Inox at 54 Rc +/-.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/679189-Victorinox-Steel
I'm not sure how to respond. It is true that the the Micra is slightly larger and heavier than (65m, 1.8 oz) than the Classic (58mm, 0.8 oz). That's 7mm (quarter of an inch) and an ounce heavier. I wouldn't classify that as "much much smaller" but we may have different points of view on that. They're both sold and used by many as key ring tools. As for costs, the Micra can be found from Bladeforum dealers for $23 compared to the Classic's $15. (I buy mine used from auction sites in lots and get them for well under $10 per, but I'm willing to tune 'em up.)
Here's a quick shot of one of the few Classics I have laying around next to 2 Micras (and a PS4). Sorry for the crude photo but it will have to do for now.
image by Pinnah, on Flickr
The black Classic was carried on my key ring for about 2 years. It's hard to see but both scales are cracked from impacts with keys. Also both the tweezers and toothpick are both long gone. Also note the busted missing scissors spring. As I understand it, the scales, tweezers, toothpick and spring can all be replaced. Good thing. Most of my Classics aged similarly.
The red Micra was on my key rings for well over two years. You will note that the anodization got scratched up by the keys. The other notable damage that it has is...
... Actually there is no other damage. It works perfectly with no wobbles of any sort. (Note, I chopped off the knife blade to get this one through TSA checks.)
For me (and just speaking for myself), I find the additional 7mm and 1 oz of weight to give a huge increase in capability. The scissors on the Micra are much easier to use and much tougher. More like mini shop shears and quite capable of dealing with flashing. The screw driver capabilities of the Micra are much better, no question. I find the tweezers on the Micra to be better. They're particularly easy to use for digging splinters if you tune the tips on a fine stone and open the tool up full length as shown on the silver colored Micra. The full open position gives great control. In terms of the knife, the Micra gives the option of using it in the full open position (shown) and in this mode, it becomes a capable whittler. Not as good as a real whittling knife but much better than the Classic as you can apply real force on the flat behind the blade. Lastly, durability of the joints is a clear win to the Micra. Massive rivet heads on the tool ends and while any multi-tool can be damaged with enough force, the Micras way out last any Victorinox I've owned in this regard.
I agree that the Classic is a better for light, light tasks. I give more Classics as gifts for people want something on their key chain that is unobtrusive and rarely used. It's perfect for that. I use my small tool all the time. Easily once a day. Micra is a much better value for me.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/679189-Victorinox-Steel
I'm not sure how to respond. It is true that the the Micra is slightly larger and heavier than (65m, 1.8 oz) than the Classic (58mm, 0.8 oz). That's 7mm (quarter of an inch) and an ounce heavier. I wouldn't classify that as "much much smaller" but we may have different points of view on that. They're both sold and used by many as key ring tools. As for costs, the Micra can be found from Bladeforum dealers for $23 compared to the Classic's $15. (I buy mine used from auction sites in lots and get them for well under $10 per, but I'm willing to tune 'em up.)
Here's a quick shot of one of the few Classics I have laying around next to 2 Micras (and a PS4). Sorry for the crude photo but it will have to do for now.
image by Pinnah, on Flickr
The black Classic was carried on my key ring for about 2 years. It's hard to see but both scales are cracked from impacts with keys. Also both the tweezers and toothpick are both long gone. Also note the busted missing scissors spring. As I understand it, the scales, tweezers, toothpick and spring can all be replaced. Good thing. Most of my Classics aged similarly.
The red Micra was on my key rings for well over two years. You will note that the anodization got scratched up by the keys. The other notable damage that it has is...
... Actually there is no other damage. It works perfectly with no wobbles of any sort. (Note, I chopped off the knife blade to get this one through TSA checks.)
For me (and just speaking for myself), I find the additional 7mm and 1 oz of weight to give a huge increase in capability. The scissors on the Micra are much easier to use and much tougher. More like mini shop shears and quite capable of dealing with flashing. The screw driver capabilities of the Micra are much better, no question. I find the tweezers on the Micra to be better. They're particularly easy to use for digging splinters if you tune the tips on a fine stone and open the tool up full length as shown on the silver colored Micra. The full open position gives great control. In terms of the knife, the Micra gives the option of using it in the full open position (shown) and in this mode, it becomes a capable whittler. Not as good as a real whittling knife but much better than the Classic as you can apply real force on the flat behind the blade. Lastly, durability of the joints is a clear win to the Micra. Massive rivet heads on the tool ends and while any multi-tool can be damaged with enough force, the Micras way out last any Victorinox I've owned in this regard.
I agree that the Classic is a better for light, light tasks. I give more Classics as gifts for people want something on their key chain that is unobtrusive and rarely used. It's perfect for that. I use my small tool all the time. Easily once a day. Micra is a much better value for me.
Alright you may have a point. I see the Micra is only $17 and the Classic is $12 on a certain retail site.
I'm gonna check out Leatherman to see what else they have in the keychain range.
I just checked out a comparison review and thought the Micra was much larger and thicker then it is.
As I mentioned before I love Victorinox (alox and 91 mm at least) but find the keychain knives a bit underwhelming.
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This is certainly true regarding the thickness. On the key ring, I noticed the weight, not the width but that's YMMV territory like the rest of it. I long ago moved these tools off the key ring to myLFP where they get a lot more use. I don't notice the Micra in my pocket at all and actually find the width to a benefit when using the knife blade. Again, YMMV difference.
Regarding other Leatherman offerings in the "key ring" class, that picture also shows a PS4 Squirt. It has a Wegner style pair of scissors (doesn't rely on the bent spring design) and 2 very small screw drivers, along with the primary pliers head. I carry the PS4 Squirt in my repair/1st aid kit for backpacking/ski touring, for bandage and small item repair. The pliers are important for me to drive a heavy needle and thread through pack cloth, for instance. But, for EDC use, the Micra rides in my LFP and I'll walk to get pliers if I need them (Wave or Paratool in my day pack, most days).
Regarding other Leatherman offerings in the "key ring" class, that picture also shows a PS4 Squirt. It has a Wegner style pair of scissors (doesn't rely on the bent spring design) and 2 very small screw drivers, along with the primary pliers head. I carry the PS4 Squirt in my repair/1st aid kit for backpacking/ski touring, for bandage and small item repair. The pliers are important for me to drive a heavy needle and thread through pack cloth, for instance. But, for EDC use, the Micra rides in my LFP and I'll walk to get pliers if I need them (Wave or Paratool in my day pack, most days).
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Edge retention is not very important on an extremely thin ground blade intended for light-EDC tasks (but can handle much more demanding tasks). Mora makes outstanding knives, but a SAK, with its additional tools and smaller profile, is far more convenient for EDC. The same applies for Buck and Opinel.
Your post discounts the outstanding build quality, design, and function of Victorinox knives, especially Alox models. A Victorinox farmer, for example, batons wood as well as most mid-sized folders if the saw and blade are used correctly. Leatherman is SAKs' largest competitor and it is difficult to pick which one is better. The differences between the two are almost entirely aesthetic and subjective.
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The two that immediately come to my mind are the Spydie Manix 2 and the HK 14715. Bought each for about $90 new. IMHO, they're worth close to double what I paid.
For value.......
Fixed blades? Beckers. Best bang for your buck in fixed blades IMHO. I also think that scrapyard knives brings a good value, much the same way as ZT.
Folder? Rat-1 or the ontario utilitac line are great values. I also think that ZT offers great value in folders, but in a different way.
Fixed blades? Beckers. Best bang for your buck in fixed blades IMHO. I also think that scrapyard knives brings a good value, much the same way as ZT.
Folder? Rat-1 or the ontario utilitac line are great values. I also think that ZT offers great value in folders, but in a different way.
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[video]http://rs1377.pbsrc.com/albums/ah46/serious1/Mobile%20Uploads/DSC_0347_zpsc8ka66yu.jpg~320x480[/video]
Branded by many as "The World's Strongest" knife,,,,it is definitely hard badass to beat in lateral strength and chopping firepower (1,6kg weight) thickness of blade 9/16th "inch,5160 carbon leaf spring steel,dual heat treated,zone tempered,entirely hand made,hand forged in Nepal,by old traditional khukuri bladesmith method...Full flat tang,rivetted buffalo horn handle,mirror polish finish.
Branded by many as "The World's Strongest" knife,,,,it is definitely hard badass to beat in lateral strength and chopping firepower (1,6kg weight) thickness of blade 9/16th "inch,5160 carbon leaf spring steel,dual heat treated,zone tempered,entirely hand made,hand forged in Nepal,by old traditional khukuri bladesmith method...Full flat tang,rivetted buffalo horn handle,mirror polish finish.