Hardness vs Wear Resistance?

[Ankerson]

This is not matter of believe. If you cut butter on fine china plate - when you see edge ruined it will not be because of this steel can not handle butter, but because fine china is harder then steel. Cutting rope on hard wooden base make it random and as well greatly depends on blade geometry. Like in you concave BM710 test versus Spyderco Military. BM710 edge did not hit base at same level as Military (or did not hit at all), so results are greatly compromised because of that, which I already told you right when we discuss that first.

Same random level of load on the edge would be with straight vs curved edge etc. But it is not only placement of impact is random is case of wooden base, but power of impact is random as well.

It is very hard to have edge hit base always with same strength. Rope affect edge with same pressure - the one needed to cut rope fibers then no pressure you may be sure it is more or less even, in case of wooden base which did not get cut through pressure would vary in great numbers.

So when I tried my test with base results were unacceptable for me. It is very easy to try.



What I learn in first years of testing is that I can get any consistent results I am looking for - this is human nature. I throw two first testing sessions away - because I found that it is too much influenced by me and so just what I pleased to have not real data. So this is why it is important to have formal procedure for cutting and for measurements.



If you can whittle hair it is good starting point and easy to test. But finish point is also quite important - it can not be just feeling.

Thanks, Vassili.

That's why I do it the way I do, because it's very consistent and it's repeatable and the results are repeatable. I do constant checks to verify my results and make sure I am consistent, I am very picky about what I am doing and the way that I do it to a fault, it has to be right or it's not good enough. The method that I use and the way I do it exactly is laid out in my thread.

If it wasn't then I would do it another way believe me.

That BM isn't the only blade I tested in M390.....

 

[nozh2002]

That's why I do it the way I do, because it's very consistent and it's repeatable and the results are repeatable. I do constant checks to verify my results and make sure I am consistent, I am very picky about what I am doing and the way that I do it to a fault, it has to be right or it's not good enough. The method that I use and the way I do it exactly is laid out in my thread.

If it wasn't then I would do it another way believe me.

That BM isn't the only blade I tested in M390.....

Here we go again. I point out my thought and explain my concerns in details. But you just ignore all what I sad! You replay is simple - "I am just right!". You just state things which has to be explained.

Well what you expect then? My concerns are not answered. If you are really pick about what are you doing why do you just turns away from questions like that?

Did you try to make jig which prevents edge hitting base? Is it too hard to do? This is what I would do - like I did this device to make sure thread has same tension in replay to similar questions.

But you instead acting not like scientist looking for truth, but like politician in public debates to raise some votes. Just repeating again and again - "I am right!" ignoring any questions from "opponent" (which I am not). Again ask yourself is it testing or is it some show?

I do not see how this is "constructive".

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Ankerson]

Here we go again. I point out my thought and explain my concerns in details. But you just ignore all what I sad! You replay is simple - "I am just right!". You just state things which has to be explained.

Well what you expect then? My concerns are not answered. If you are really pick about what are you doing why do you just turns away from questions like that?

Did you try to make jig which prevents edge hitting base? Is it too hard to do? This is what I would do - like I did this device to make sure thread has same tension in replay to similar questions.

But you instead acting not like scientist looking for truth, but like politician in public debates to raise some votes. Just repeating again and again - "I am right!" ignoring any questions from "opponent" (which I am not).

I do not see how this is "constructive".

Thanks, Vassili.

But it is because we have been down this road before and more than once.

The way that I do it is not going to change, you do it your way and that's fine.

The reason I won't change it is because of the accuracy that I can get and the level of accuracy and it's repeatable over and over.

When things are that accurate and repeatable there is no reason to change.

If it's not broke don't fix it.

 

[Jason B.]

Your wasting your breath (key strokes) Jim.

 

[Ankerson]

Your wasting your breath (key strokes) Jim.

I am really trying to be nice about this.

 

[Jason B.]

You no match for russian sniper.

 

[Ankerson]

You no match for russian sniper.

Oh that is funny.

 

[Ditch_Digger]

Jim,

As far as I can tell, the ONLY gripe/criticism Vasilli has with your testing is the fact that you don't have a kerf or a "relief" in your cutting surface to keep the wood, or other backing, out of the cutting path. Is that correct?

 

[Ankerson]

Jim,

As far as I can tell, the ONLY gripe/criticism Vasilli has with your testing is the fact that you don't have a kerf or a "relief" in your cutting surface to keep the wood, or other backing, out of the cutting path. Is that correct?

Yeah, but I am cutting on a scale, he isn't....

Also if the rope isn't on a solid base the cut will vary from cut to cut because the rope isn't fully supported, you get that mashing or binding effect. It's also impossible to get a consistent reading on the scale.

The method I am using works best for me.

 

[Ditch_Digger]

Yeah, but I am cutting on a scale, he isn't....

Also if the rope isn't on a solid base the cut will vary from cut to cut because the rope isn't fully supported, you get that mashing or binding effect.

The method I am using works best for me.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think you are doing anything wrong, on the contrary, I feel that you have gone out of your way to explain your process and the reasons for doing so! Furthermore, I don't see how you can improve it except to mechanize it somehow to take the human element out of it. Would really save some wear and tear on your wrists too!


What I'm attempting to do is to pin Vasilli down on exactly what he feels is so wrong with your methodology and more importantly, get to the bottom of why his results differ so much from yours! Like I stated before, having a kerf/relief in your cutting surface is NOT reason enough to have such wildly differing results between you two. It is just common sense that as long as ALL of the knives being tested are ALL cutting against the same piece of wood then that's a NON-issue. They are all subjected to the same amount of wear!

 

[Ankerson]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think you are doing anything wrong, on the contrary, I feel that you have gone out of your way to explain your process and the reasons for doing so! Furthermore, I don't see how you can improve it except to mechanize it somehow to take the human element out of it. Would really save some wear and tear on your wrists too!


What I'm attempting to do is to pin Vasilli down on exactly what he feels is so wrong with your methodology and more importantly, get to the bottom of why his results differ so much from yours! Like I stated before, having a kerf/relief in your cutting surface is NOT reason enough to have such wildly differing results between you two. It is just common sense that as long as ALL of the knives being tested are ALL cutting against the same piece of wood then that's a NON-issue. They are all subjected to the same wear!

Yeah everything is the same all the time, I always use the same piece of wood, the rope is the same also and I verify the wear resistance when I get new rope from my cutting data on a known tested blade.

I buy rope in 100' lengths all from the same supplier.

 

[Ditch_Digger]

Yeah everything is the same all the time, I always use the same piece of wood, the rope is the same also and I verify the wear resistance when I get new rope from my cutting data on a known tested blade.

I buy rope in 100' lengths all from the same supplier.

Thanks Jim.
In any testing methodology, consistency is a vital component. Do you happen to have a video showing the cutting set-up you are currently using?

 

[Ankerson]

Thanks Jim.
In any testing methodology, consistency is a vital component. Do you happen to have a video showing the cutting set-up you are currently using?

Never made one, boy that would be a boring video. LOL

Plus the camera would have to move and show everything and I don't have a camera person. I don't use a camcorder, I use my Nikon D90 DSLR to shoot video and it doesn't have autofocus when shooting video.

 

[Ditch_Digger]

Yeah, a full length video showing you cut all that rope would be like watching mud dry!

No, what I was thinking is maybe shoot a video showing your "test bench" and how you go about your new method of testing. Point out the pertinent parts to doing what you do and explain things a little. It would be a good way to show others what you are doing AND if anyone else was twisted enough, they could replicate your procedure and independently confirm your results. THIS would/should silence any critics like Vasilli !! You could then simply tell them to put up or shut up.

 

[Ankerson]

Yeah, a full length video showing you cut all that rope would be like watching mud dry!

No, what I was thinking is maybe shoot a video showing your "test bench" and how you go about your new method of testing. Point out the pertinent parts to doing what you do and explain things a little. It would be a good way to show others what you are doing AND if anyone else was twisted enough, they could replicate your procedure and independently confirm your results. THIS would/should silence any critics like Vasilli !! You could then simply tell them to put up or shut up.

It's really a very simple setup.

I cut on the floor, not on a table.

I have the scale on the floor with a piece of 3x4 Landscape timber on it to cut on.

The most important and hardest part of the whole thing is not to push down with the off hand when measuring the down force.

It's really not that hard, it's just repetition and finding out what works the best and what's the most consistent for you. Like many things the more you do it the better you get at it.

 

[Ditch_Digger]

Ok, it was just an idea. Sounds brutally boring.

I'm telling ya, anybody handy with a little metal fabrication could easily come up with a mechanized arm that has a clamp to hold the knife and would be powered with a motor. Think of a bicycle pedaling motion. Or a simple up/down guillotine? Any motion you would like actually. Very simple rods/linkages with spherical rod ends or simple bushings. You could then get a digital scale with a data output and/or a programmable set-point to stop the motor at a set weight point. A mechanical counter is added to tally the cuts. Not sure what's available in scales like that but I would think something like that is available. I have no ideal on price either but a design like I'm suggesting should be doable fairly easily and a helluva lot cheaper than a CATRA!


..just more food for thought.

 

[Ankerson]

Ok, it was just an idea. Sounds brutally boring.

I'm telling ya, anybody handy with a little metal fabrication could easily come up with a mechanized arm that has a clamp to hold the knife and would be powered with a motor. Think of a bicycle pedaling motion. Or a simple up/down guillotine? Any motion you would like actually. Very simple rods/linkages with spherical rod ends or simple bushings. You could then get a digital scale with a data output and/or a programmable set-point to stop the motor at a set weight point. A mechanical counter is added to tally the cuts. Not sure what's available in scales like that but I would think something like that is available. I have no ideal on price either but a design like I'm suggesting should be doable fairly easily and a helluva lot cheaper than a CATRA!


..just more food for thought.

I make slicing cuts from back to the tip of the blade.

Oh it's possible to make a machine to do it, but it wouldn't have my personal touch and I don't know if it would be as accurate.

I have it down to a science now along with my partner in crime Phil Wilson, it's his method that I am using. :thumbup:

 

[Ditch_Digger]

Jim, there's absolutely no doubt it would be accurate.

Just think about it.
You are removing the human element from all of this. I know you are rightfully proud of your work but it is pure drudgery to put a human through that much repetition. Think of all the wear 'n tear on your wrists! That's the very reason we made machines. As long as they are engineered correctly, they can do the back breaking work, 24/7, without missing a beat. Think of the volume of testing you could do and the free time you would have to do other things.

 

[Ankerson]

Jim, there's absolutely no doubt it would be accurate.

Just think about it.
You are removing the human element from all of this. I know you are rightfully proud of your work but it is pure drudgery to put a human through that much repetition. Think of all the wear 'n tear on your wrists! That's the very reason we made machines. As long as they are engineered correctly, they can do the back breaking work, 24/7, without missing a beat. Think of the volume of testing you could do and the free time you would have to do other things.

I am more of a hands on kinda guy, but yeah it would make life easier in the end, but it wouldn't be as much fun.

Plus it's the challenge of being consistent.

Plus I really get a feel for how the different steels cut and that's very interesting.

A CARTA machine would be the ticket really though I think. :thumbup:

 

[Ditch_Digger]

Any decent DIYer/fabricator could knock off something like what I'm talking about for a tiny fraction of what a CATRA machine runs! I can't take on anymore "non-paying" projects at the moment but I will work on some CAD drawings and investigate a source for a strain gauge sensor with data outputs. This is not terribly complicated. An interface would likely be the biggest challenge but a laptop would probably be the best solution for that. I wonder how commercially viable something like this would be???