Has Anyone Gone To The Land Of Too Toothy And Survived To Tell The Tail ?

I have been waiting for the vendor of the Shapton stones for my Edge Pro to get a 220 stone back in stock.
I waited seven months. I gave up.

Long story short (I requested a few times that he get the stones back in stock) . . .
I received mine today. Quick shipping; three days.

I don't know how many he has but order quick; that's my advice.

I can't say who but if you search Shapton Edge Pro stones he is about the only one that will come up that has the one inch wide stones. (I'm in America; there may be other vendors depending on where you are).

PS: Looks good, feels pretty darned coarse. I haven't use it yet but hey, it's a Shapton.
 
When i do a search for stones on eBay, I sometimes come across really old used ones, some still with the packaging and cannot remember seeing any grit level even mentioned, So is our mania to find the perfect grit a new thing.

I find in my kitchen my serrated blade knives rarely need sharpening, maybe even when the point of the tooth is dull (from hitting bone) once it in the flesh and you start to pull the rest of the tooth is still sharp and still cuts like new.
 
Alberta Ed said:
Dick Persons, the noted Yukon guide and knife aficionado, told me he always used his coarsest hone on his D2 blades. They would just snick through big game knee joints that way. I find that large carbide steels work best with coarse or medium grit hones; high carbon works best with a polished edge.
Click to expand...
You may have a point. But also I think it depends on the material you're cutting.


Here's a test that shows a mirror edge works well on 8cr13mov cutting cardboard vs a course edge. The difference is minor and he didn't try 400 grit which iirc Ankersons generally uses for his tests (that and the op is about s110v not 8cr13mov. I do find a more course edge works better for higher carbide steels. But I've not gone back to back testing like the youtube stars in this respect.
 
PoorUserName said:
When i do a search for stones on eBay, I sometimes come across really old used ones, some still with the packaging and cannot remember seeing any grit level even mentioned, So is our mania to find the perfect grit a new thing.

I find in my kitchen my serrated blade knives rarely need sharpening, maybe even when the point of the tooth is dull (from hitting bone) once it in the flesh and you start to pull the rest of the tooth is still sharp and still cuts like new.
Click to expand...

True serrated knives are depending on a whole other realm of Physics / cutting geometry.
Personally I can't stand serrated edges but I see why some , who cut different stuff than I do regularly depend on them and may even . . . heaven forbid . . . like them.

I've gone back to polished edges but I don't cut rope practically ever.

One HUGE pet peeve I have with most any serrated knife you care to pick up is first of all it is single bevel and secondly and more importantly , for a right handed person, the bevel is on the wrong side for slicing in the kitchen.
 
I am a frequest visitor to The Land of Too Toothy. The Sun Tiger #240 is one of my favorite medium coarse waterstones. Low bond, green SiC, cuts fast. A handful or two of maintainence passes is all it takes.
 
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Should CTS-204P steel be finished toothy to cut weeds and briars?
 
i do not post on here often, mostly i just read and learn.
for 3 years now i have been trying to fine the toothy edge for many of my restaurant customers. it seems they rate knives by how they cut tomatoes, but not all, one of the local grocery butcher guys rate by how they cut grissel...etc.
keep in mind i use a kally and viel.......my normal restaurant grits were 120 thru 600 for about a year.....most wanted better knives for tomatoes.
then i just used 120 and leather ruff side out with 1266/1268...(bar size) green formax honing compound......results were good as long as i spend time on the leather.......nice tomatoe edge.
i picked up anther butcher guy and 8 or so more restaurants......so now my testing base is better in the real world.
ok

i have been testing 60 grit and green leather for a good spell........now i want to stick some out there.

3 weeks ago i sharpened 9 chefs style knives....8 to 10"......3 at 60 grit....green......3 at 120 grit...green and 3 up to 600 grit and green.
first reply i got back from the butcher guy was the 60 grit was the best edge he has use for grissel and meat.....120 next ok.

1 set went to mexican place on 2 week exchange.......same results.....all around restaurant kitchen knife was the 60 gritter.......tomato killer.

the last set is a 3 week exchange and i will not get them until tues or wed.

after 2 & 3 weeks, the 60gritters still had a little edge compared to the other grits tested.

just some fyi.......more testing.........i did use the 3m blue non woven on some of the 60grit to blend in the grit patter......i did not see much difference with the edge after green ......blade just looked better.

next week i plan on buying a pt50 tester that mike brubacher makes
 
MaxfromVirginia said:
i do not post on here often, mostly i just read and learn.
for 3 years now i have been trying to fine the toothy edge for many of my restaurant customers. it seems they rate knives by how they cut tomatoes, but not all, one of the local grocery butcher guys rate by how they cut grissel...etc.
keep in mind i use a kally and viel.......my normal restaurant grits were 120 thru 600 for about a year.....most wanted better knives for tomatoes.
then i just used 120 and leather ruff side out with 1266/1268...(bar size) green formax honing compound......results were good as long as i spend time on the leather.......nice tomatoe edge.
i picked up anther butcher guy and 8 or so more restaurants......so now my testing base is better in the real world.
ok

i have been testing 60 grit and green leather for a good spell........now i want to stick some out there.

3 weeks ago i sharpened 9 chefs style knives....8 to 10"......3 at 60 grit....green......3 at 120 grit...green and 3 up to 600 grit and green.
first reply i got back from the butcher guy was the 60 grit was the best edge he has use for grissel and meat.....120 next ok.

1 set went to mexican place on 2 week exchange.......same results.....all around restaurant kitchen knife was the 60 gritter.......tomato killer.

the last set is a 3 week exchange and i will not get them until tues or wed.

after 2 & 3 weeks, the 60gritters still had a little edge compared to the other grits tested.

just some fyi.......more testing.........i did use the 3m blue non woven on some of the 60grit to blend in the grit patter......i did not see much difference with the edge after green ......blade just looked better.

next week i plan on buying a pt50 tester that mike brubacher makes
Click to expand...

Have a read of the link below.

http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/Juranitch1977Feb.htm
 
PoorUserName said:
I would have thought a slicing cut should be toothy and a pressing cut should be shiny.
Click to expand...
Where were you when we needed you !
Could have saved a whole bunch of posting and typing and replying and posting.
:D
I guess I am just a push cutter. As I tell my customers "To apply the brakes is to admit defeat".
To saw away with my knife means it isn't sharp.
You know I'm kidding (sort of).
 
MaxfromVirginia said:
i do not post on here often, mostly i just read and learn.
for 3 years now i have been trying to fine the toothy edge for many of my restaurant customers. it seems they rate knives by how they cut tomatoes, but not all, one of the local grocery butcher guys rate by how they cut grissel...etc.
keep in mind i use a kally and viel.......my normal restaurant grits were 120 thru 600 for about a year.....most wanted better knives for tomatoes.
then i just used 120 and leather ruff side out with 1266/1268...(bar size) green formax honing compound......results were good as long as i spend time on the leather.......nice tomatoe edge.
i picked up anther butcher guy and 8 or so more restaurants......so now my testing base is better in the real world.
ok

i have been testing 60 grit and green leather for a good spell........now i want to stick some out there.

3 weeks ago i sharpened 9 chefs style knives....8 to 10"......3 at 60 grit....green......3 at 120 grit...green and 3 up to 600 grit and green.
first reply i got back from the butcher guy was the 60 grit was the best edge he has use for grissel and meat.....120 next ok.

1 set went to mexican place on 2 week exchange.......same results.....all around restaurant kitchen knife was the 60 gritter.......tomato killer.

the last set is a 3 week exchange and i will not get them until tues or wed.

after 2 & 3 weeks, the 60gritters still had a little edge compared to the other grits tested.

just some fyi.......more testing.........i did use the 3m blue non woven on some of the 60grit to blend in the grit patter......i did not see much difference with the edge after green ......blade just looked better.

next week i plan on buying a pt50 tester that mike brubacher makes
Click to expand...

Hell they make 36 grit sand paper.
Better yet hand 'em all some dime store serrated "knives".
Silky folding saws ? ? ?
Now I'm depressed.
:(

PS : As a Ranger that I used to work with used to say "never under estimate brute strength and ignoance".
And I misspelled "tale" in the title; how embariskin.
 
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Mr. Bagger,

I didn't (survive). Last I used my 600 grit diamond finished edge opening a pack of instant drink, it felt 'draggy'.

Put it through my usual DMT EEF + Spyderco UF, it glides through like magic like it should.

Thanks to you, I'm not giving up S110V yet, though it 'failed' clean cut at the end of the motion, my 8Cr & VG10 do it cleanly.

Perhaps my particular EDU (Every Day Use).:oops:
 
MaxfromVirginia said:
i do not post on here often, mostly i just read and learn.
for 3 years now i have been trying to fine the toothy edge for many of my restaurant customers. it seems they rate knives by how they cut tomatoes, but not all, one of the local grocery butcher guys rate by how they cut grissel...etc.
keep in mind i use a kally and viel.......my normal restaurant grits were 120 thru 600 for about a year.....most wanted better knives for tomatoes.
then i just used 120 and leather ruff side out with 1266/1268...(bar size) green formax honing compound......results were good as long as i spend time on the leather.......nice tomatoe edge.
i picked up anther butcher guy and 8 or so more restaurants......so now my testing base is better in the real world.
ok

i have been testing 60 grit and green leather for a good spell........now i want to stick some out there.

3 weeks ago i sharpened 9 chefs style knives....8 to 10"......3 at 60 grit....green......3 at 120 grit...green and 3 up to 600 grit and green.
first reply i got back from the butcher guy was the 60 grit was the best edge he has use for grissel and meat.....120 next ok.

1 set went to mexican place on 2 week exchange.......same results.....all around restaurant kitchen knife was the 60 gritter.......tomato killer.

the last set is a 3 week exchange and i will not get them until tues or wed.

after 2 & 3 weeks, the 60gritters still had a little edge compared to the other grits tested.

just some fyi.......more testing.........i did use the 3m blue non woven on some of the 60grit to blend in the grit patter......i did not see much difference with the edge after green ......blade just looked better.

next week i plan on buying a pt50 tester that mike brubacher makes
Click to expand...
Hi,
Have you tried finishing your edges on a sharpening stone?
For example,
do your regular sharpening
using your 220-400 belt followed by green leather (which eliminates all tooth),
then a few edge leading alternating passes on a hard bonded stone
to put some tooth back on your apex,
for example, a ~$5 1000# grit diamond plate or ...


Going down to 36 grit, and then going to a buffer ... that sounds like what these pictures show, basically .5mm serrations Microforge Technology...


IMHO, P50 tester is nothing special,
people have been testing push cutting sharpness
for a long time using thread and a food scale (or luggage scale),
it can cost under $5 as lugage scales are real simple devices
 
MaxfromVirginia said:
i do not post on here often, mostly i just read and learn.
for 3 years now i have been trying to fine the toothy edge for many of my restaurant customers. it seems they rate knives by how they cut tomatoes, but not all, one of the local grocery butcher guys rate by how they cut grissel...etc.
keep in mind i use a kally and viel.......my normal restaurant grits were 120 thru 600 for about a year.....most wanted better knives for tomatoes.
then i just used 120 and leather ruff side out with 1266/1268...(bar size) green formax honing compound......results were good as long as i spend time on the leather.......nice tomatoe edge.
i picked up anther butcher guy and 8 or so more restaurants......so now my testing base is better in the real world.
ok

i have been testing 60 grit and green leather for a good spell........now i want to stick some out there.

3 weeks ago i sharpened 9 chefs style knives....8 to 10"......3 at 60 grit....green......3 at 120 grit...green and 3 up to 600 grit and green.
first reply i got back from the butcher guy was the 60 grit was the best edge he has use for grissel and meat.....120 next ok.

1 set went to mexican place on 2 week exchange.......same results.....all around restaurant kitchen knife was the 60 gritter.......tomato killer.

the last set is a 3 week exchange and i will not get them until tues or wed.

after 2 & 3 weeks, the 60gritters still had a little edge compared to the other grits tested.

just some fyi.......more testing.........i did use the 3m blue non woven on some of the 60grit to blend in the grit patter......i did not see much difference with the edge after green ......blade just looked better.

next week i plan on buying a pt50 tester that mike brubacher makes
Click to expand...


Another option - 400 grit waterstone and microbevel on 8k polishing stone. You get the up and down variations from the 400 but the thinner apex from the micro.

An even more coarse stone finished on a smooth steel with a few micro passes will have a very similar effect and can be touched up on a glazed bowl rim, coffee cup etc until the edge is drawn out or rolled.

Many ways to get a rougher edge, for GP it should be balanced by making it as thin as practical.

If your customers were willing to do any maintenance you could give them a finer edge, but for a 3 week cycle the rougher edge on commercial kitchen knife steel will last longest in that environment.
 
bgentry said:
But once you start using these "scary" edges in real materials you learn that super refined edges aren't at all practical. They dull extremely quickly in coarse materials. So I began moving back towards more coarse edges, but *sharp* and properly deburred. After doing some experiments, I realized that a 100 to 200 grit edge, properly done, is a nice long lasting edge for every day use. It's a funny thing. Most factory edges are sharpened on a 180 to 220 grit belt and then buffed on a cotton wheel to take off the burr. Hmmm..

So it turns out the manufacturers *do* know something. Imagine that!

I'm such a slow learner sometimes. Play with those coarse edges. They have some real benefits.

Brian.
Click to expand...

This is interesting and I've heard it a few times here in forums. I have no opinion on it because I've always been a super practical knife user and sharpener, and haven't spent a lot of time doing things like polishing edges or trying to get things so sharp they split hairs.

So here's a question: What is the most practical, all-purpose edge in terms of "toothiness vs refinement" and most cutting tasks? Is it possible to have any consensus on that, or will that just degenerate into endless rounds of debating? :-)
 
bucketstove said:
Hi,
Have you tried finishing your edges on a sharpening stone?
For example,
do your regular sharpening
using your 220-400 belt followed by green leather (which eliminates all tooth),
then a few edge leading alternating passes on a hard bonded stone
to put some tooth back on your apex,
for example, a ~$5 1000# grit diamond plate or ...


Going down to 36 grit, and then going to a buffer ... that sounds like what these pictures show, basically .5mm serrations Microforge Technology...


IMHO, P50 tester is nothing special,
people have been testing push cutting sharpness
for a long time using thread and a food scale (or luggage scale),
it can cost under $5 as lugage scales are real simple devices
Click to expand...
.
the pt50 has been on hold for me since it came out and i have thought about buying now for 4 months, my fingers seem to be the best judge at present and other items i test with.......i will probably hold off again.
.
i will try your plan and see....thanks
 
Wowbagger said:
Hell they make 36 grit sand paper.
Better yet hand 'em all some dime store serrated "knives".
Silky folding saws ? ? ?
Now I'm depressed.
:(

PS : As a Ranger that I used to work with used to say "never under estimate brute strength and ignoance".
And I misspelled "tale" in the title; how embariskin.
Click to expand...
.
i really use a lot of 36 grit......mower blades, hatches and axes, but the hatches and axes i finish almost all to trizact A16 - 1200 grit the green.
.
the problem with restaurants is they use all their knives for so many cutting applications......trying to get a blade to perform for all is difficult.
 
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