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Hatchets and Large knives
- Thread starter grant4353
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Cliff Stamp
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V Shrake :
There are large difference in performance which would readily swamp out personal attributes. For example use a quality hatchet and a quality long knife to cut very live brush. Even a novice with the blade will easily outperform a exeperienced woodsman with an axe (who would never do such work with an axe anyway), because the blade has a much longer contact area, will not hook in vegetation (it can get under the bit of the axe in the neck), and the axe will push such vegetation out of the way rather than cut it due to the thicker cross section.
This ignores half of the relevant equation which is the geometry, specifically large wood cutting knives are far thinner in cross section which enables them to achiece greater penetration with less effort. Axes need stiffer wood to allow the power of the axe to be functional, otherwise all it does is move the wood. There is also the question of efficiency, how much cutter gets done for how much work is expended. However the axe does have a balancer in this regard as it draws on larger muscle groups which will fatigue slower.
grant4353 :
A hatchet will work better as an unassisted splitter and hammer. It will also outchop the long blade on thick woods, 4"+, however out side of internet fantasy logging, this size of wood rarely cut to build shelters or light a fire. Consider that in a modern wood stove, with a 3"+ layer of red coal, which is fully heated, I can place a 4"+ piece of wet wood and it will do nothing but smoke as all the water boils off. In order to burn such wood you have to split it multiple times and leave it by the fire to dry out. You are *much* better off colecting smaller wood, specifially looking for deadfall and other dried and dead branches.
Similar for shelter building, no one chops down logs to build a lean-to, not only it is very wasteful, but the danger increases dramatically in felling wood as the size of the tree increases. Plus you would want to consider how difficult it is to move a 6-8" stick (~250 lbs limbed out). Yes if you are 10' tall and eat a whole moose for breakfast, picking your teeth with a 2x4, you might need such wood to sustain your great limbering bulk, but for the majority of humanity you are looking at live wood in the 1-3" range for shelter building. This type of wood is much more efficiently cut and limbed out with a long blade (a nice folding saw easily zips these sticks down as well but is much slower when limbing).
Axes have a more complicated technique because they draw on larger muscle groups to give full power and the swing is thus generally wider and thus more likely to cause problems. However it takes skill to use both and I would recommend starting slow and easy and learning how to place your hits where they should go before powering hard into a stroke. It is no use after all to have piles of energy if you are wasting hits constantly by missing your target.
-Cliff
There are large difference in performance which would readily swamp out personal attributes. For example use a quality hatchet and a quality long knife to cut very live brush. Even a novice with the blade will easily outperform a exeperienced woodsman with an axe (who would never do such work with an axe anyway), because the blade has a much longer contact area, will not hook in vegetation (it can get under the bit of the axe in the neck), and the axe will push such vegetation out of the way rather than cut it due to the thicker cross section.
This ignores half of the relevant equation which is the geometry, specifically large wood cutting knives are far thinner in cross section which enables them to achiece greater penetration with less effort. Axes need stiffer wood to allow the power of the axe to be functional, otherwise all it does is move the wood. There is also the question of efficiency, how much cutter gets done for how much work is expended. However the axe does have a balancer in this regard as it draws on larger muscle groups which will fatigue slower.
grant4353 :
A hatchet will work better as an unassisted splitter and hammer. It will also outchop the long blade on thick woods, 4"+, however out side of internet fantasy logging, this size of wood rarely cut to build shelters or light a fire. Consider that in a modern wood stove, with a 3"+ layer of red coal, which is fully heated, I can place a 4"+ piece of wet wood and it will do nothing but smoke as all the water boils off. In order to burn such wood you have to split it multiple times and leave it by the fire to dry out. You are *much* better off colecting smaller wood, specifially looking for deadfall and other dried and dead branches.
Similar for shelter building, no one chops down logs to build a lean-to, not only it is very wasteful, but the danger increases dramatically in felling wood as the size of the tree increases. Plus you would want to consider how difficult it is to move a 6-8" stick (~250 lbs limbed out). Yes if you are 10' tall and eat a whole moose for breakfast, picking your teeth with a 2x4, you might need such wood to sustain your great limbering bulk, but for the majority of humanity you are looking at live wood in the 1-3" range for shelter building. This type of wood is much more efficiently cut and limbed out with a long blade (a nice folding saw easily zips these sticks down as well but is much slower when limbing).
Axes have a more complicated technique because they draw on larger muscle groups to give full power and the swing is thus generally wider and thus more likely to cause problems. However it takes skill to use both and I would recommend starting slow and easy and learning how to place your hits where they should go before powering hard into a stroke. It is no use after all to have piles of energy if you are wasting hits constantly by missing your target.
-Cliff
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Who is going to clear bush for the fun of it in any real situation? For bush clearing in real life I take a billhook over any knife. For other purposes the combination of a smallish knife and hatchet/small axe has been the preferred duo for the last thousand years or so. This is in the northern taiga area if elsewhere I am not commenting.
TLM
TLM
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If I were in a temperate forest, North America for example. I would want a hatchet or small axe for cutting hardwoods. I lived and camped there all my life and never actually recall NEEDING one though unless I was felling trees for firewood or cleaning up after wind damage.
Here in Brazil you can't function in the bush without a machete and a "large knife" is a poor second choice. The hatchet is dead weight unless you are felling trees for firewood and then a full fledge AXE is in order. Once you learn the machete it is hard to think about being in a forest without one. Here they are a mode of transportation. You can't cut your way forward with a hatchet!
If I had both in the trunk of my car and had to walk away into the bush with only one of them it would be the machete. Mac
Here in Brazil you can't function in the bush without a machete and a "large knife" is a poor second choice. The hatchet is dead weight unless you are felling trees for firewood and then a full fledge AXE is in order. Once you learn the machete it is hard to think about being in a forest without one. Here they are a mode of transportation. You can't cut your way forward with a hatchet!
If I had both in the trunk of my car and had to walk away into the bush with only one of them it would be the machete. Mac
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Quote from Cliff: however out side of internet fantasy logging, this size of wood rarely cut to build shelters or light a fire. Consider that in a modern wood stove, with a 3"+ layer of red coal, which is fully heated, I can place a 4"+ piece of wet wood and it will do nothing but smoke as all the water boils off. In order to burn such wood you have to split it multiple times and leave it by the fire to dry out. You are *much* better off colecting smaller wood, specifially looking for deadfall and other dried and dead branches.
Cliff I agree. When do you really need a heavy chopping knife for the outdoors? My Leuku teamed up with a folding saw only weighs 16.5 oz. The Leuku chops well enough for shelter and fire making and is long enough to baton through anything I want. I just can not figure out why I really need to carry a heavier knife even for an extended stay in the woods.
Cliff I agree. When do you really need a heavy chopping knife for the outdoors? My Leuku teamed up with a folding saw only weighs 16.5 oz. The Leuku chops well enough for shelter and fire making and is long enough to baton through anything I want. I just can not figure out why I really need to carry a heavier knife even for an extended stay in the woods.
Hatchet,large knife,and machete all have their own specific place and ppurpose as has been said here.BUT for purely a survival situation I feel that a medium to large knife is the best choice and heres why.A True survival knife is the one thats comfortably carried on your side.This ONE tool is the tool that can clean fish(axe and machete are not the best at this),cut and split wood,skin small and large game,Whittle,dig in a must situation,be used as a improvised machete when no machete is available,more accesible and useable in tight spots(hung in water,upside down tangled in a parachute in a tree,a crashed car,a deep cave while splunking,etc..)But most of all you are more likely to have a 5-7 inch blade on your side there when you need it rather than the machete or hatchet left back at camp.But my thoughts are based purely on a survival application and may not be as applicable in or around base camp or while performing other activities.
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Marsupial,
I would agree with what you wrote in total with the addition that in country where a machete is really warrented a large knife pressed into service is rough going.
In my climate zone I have to deal with tropical vegitation and bamboo groves in the lower elevations. Clearing this stuff with a large knife is torture, with a machete is is merely hard labor. Clearing brush here is necessary in order to hang hammocks and move forward. A cheap machete also allows you to dig holes in rocky soil without the pain in your wallet flaring up.
I have tried all sorts of combinations of blades always with an aim to force one blade to perform all functions. I gave up on the one large knife concept here, not that it wouldn't work elsewhere. I have settled on the ideal combination of a large machete and a small sheath knife as the best bet for dealing with central Brazil. Back in PA, where I grew up, I got by with a USMC Ka-Bar most of the time. Mac
I would agree with what you wrote in total with the addition that in country where a machete is really warrented a large knife pressed into service is rough going.
In my climate zone I have to deal with tropical vegitation and bamboo groves in the lower elevations. Clearing this stuff with a large knife is torture, with a machete is is merely hard labor. Clearing brush here is necessary in order to hang hammocks and move forward. A cheap machete also allows you to dig holes in rocky soil without the pain in your wallet flaring up.
I have tried all sorts of combinations of blades always with an aim to force one blade to perform all functions. I gave up on the one large knife concept here, not that it wouldn't work elsewhere. I have settled on the ideal combination of a large machete and a small sheath knife as the best bet for dealing with central Brazil. Back in PA, where I grew up, I got by with a USMC Ka-Bar most of the time. Mac
Yeah, Cliffy, whatever you say. After all, you're the expert.
No one even mentioned brush cutting. As for a *hatchet's*, not axes, cutting performance against a large knife, a good, properly set up hatchet will have an edge very similar to that of a khuk or other large knife. That is to say, a thin, sharp, preferably convexed edge.
You can play the "game" any way you want, setting it up so that only one tool or the other will perform adequately. Which is pretty much the hallmark of all your "scientific" treatise. As we all know, an SAK Rucksack (according to you) is a POS knife because it can't chop down a Redwood. Try matching the tool to the intended job.
No one even mentioned brush cutting. As for a *hatchet's*, not axes, cutting performance against a large knife, a good, properly set up hatchet will have an edge very similar to that of a khuk or other large knife. That is to say, a thin, sharp, preferably convexed edge.
You can play the "game" any way you want, setting it up so that only one tool or the other will perform adequately. Which is pretty much the hallmark of all your "scientific" treatise. As we all know, an SAK Rucksack (according to you) is a POS knife because it can't chop down a Redwood. Try matching the tool to the intended job.
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Cliff Stamp
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pict :
Parangs, goloks, and bolos are long knives which are far from poor on cutting light brush. In general they will do it much better than stamped machetes because the edge will be much thinner and the steel of much better quality (edge retention and durability aspects, not cutting ability). There are also modern blades of similar function such as the Patrol Machete from Camillus which in reality has a poor name as it has little in common design wise with a machete. Of course such knives cost a lot more than a quality machete which the high end ones (Martindale) are still ~20$.
backpacker :
For limbing mainly (shelter) as a saw does it really slowly and a longer knive is many times faster than the Leuko, or greater reach for brush cutting (shelter, food, clothing). However you could solve both of these by lashing the Leuko to a short pole to make a bill-hook. Here in the winter I would want a stouter knife to handle cutting of ice and in general wood work on frozen wood is a lot harder so you are batoning and prying (tinder mainly) with much more force. But yeah a leuko and quality saw is an excellent combination.
grant4353 :
You can survive without any knife of course, primitive man did it for quite some time, there is even no need for a fire if you want to get really basic. The question is how difficult do you want to make life for yourself in an already difficult situation. You could as well for example go naked and force yourself to fashion clothes out of vegetation and animal furs. Quality tools like a knife or axe don't make survival a certainty and do need skill and experience to utility them fully, but in such hands will make life a *lot* easier.
Try starting a fire in a very damp situation with and without a stout knife for example, even water logged wood is *rarely* wet all the way through so if you can split it you have dry wood (scrape to make first stage tinder, then split or carve for fuel), however you can easily get enough rain to soak wood which is covered in layers of boughs and other debris. Or just gather some vetegation for food, ropes, bedding or clothing and compare ripped it up with your hands to cutting it with a knife in terms of effort and time spent (not to mention damage to the vegetation which influences cord and other utilization such as baskets and such).
And now you have just broken one of the basic rules of fire building which is to have a fire wall around the fire. You generally only do that when fires can not spread such as *very* wet conditions or a lot of snow. Note fire can burn inside of a piece of wood and thus travel down it even if not immedately readily visible on the outside.
V Shrake :
The question was open ended, it didn't simply ask which one worked best on thick wood. Brush cutting (1-2" wood and lighter vegetation) is important for shelter construction, fire building, signaling, food, and misc. tools (ropes, baskets, snow shoes). It thus encompasses all aspects of survivial or outdoor living, so should be considered carefully in any such discussion.
The edge angles will be similar, however the edge thickness and overall bit/blade geometry will be very different. Specifically a quality long blade for this type of work will have the edge about 0.025" thick and above this goes into a full grind of 3-5 degrees, the axe above this level (0.025") thickens many times faster than the blade. More specific information can be senn in the reviews as I have plotted the cross sections of a few quality axes and various blades.
A hatchet by the way is simply a type of axe, specifically a small axe.
The most hilarious part of this astute comment is that it doesn't even fit in with the posts I made in this very thread (let alone to general comments made). Specifically in the above I stated thick wood chopping is rarely necessary and that other use would be more important and for those uses there are better tools, this is the *exact opposite* of the character generalization implied.
Not to mention of course that I carry a Rucksack daily, and have commented many times in the past about its high cutting ability due to the blade geometry, the efficiency of SAK saws, and the utilization of other tools (flat screwdriver to wood chisel), and its review I think is positive.
Of course such comments by V Shrake rarely have anything to do with the reality of what is written.
-Cliff
Parangs, goloks, and bolos are long knives which are far from poor on cutting light brush. In general they will do it much better than stamped machetes because the edge will be much thinner and the steel of much better quality (edge retention and durability aspects, not cutting ability). There are also modern blades of similar function such as the Patrol Machete from Camillus which in reality has a poor name as it has little in common design wise with a machete. Of course such knives cost a lot more than a quality machete which the high end ones (Martindale) are still ~20$.
backpacker :
For limbing mainly (shelter) as a saw does it really slowly and a longer knive is many times faster than the Leuko, or greater reach for brush cutting (shelter, food, clothing). However you could solve both of these by lashing the Leuko to a short pole to make a bill-hook. Here in the winter I would want a stouter knife to handle cutting of ice and in general wood work on frozen wood is a lot harder so you are batoning and prying (tinder mainly) with much more force. But yeah a leuko and quality saw is an excellent combination.
grant4353 :
You can survive without any knife of course, primitive man did it for quite some time, there is even no need for a fire if you want to get really basic. The question is how difficult do you want to make life for yourself in an already difficult situation. You could as well for example go naked and force yourself to fashion clothes out of vegetation and animal furs. Quality tools like a knife or axe don't make survival a certainty and do need skill and experience to utility them fully, but in such hands will make life a *lot* easier.
Try starting a fire in a very damp situation with and without a stout knife for example, even water logged wood is *rarely* wet all the way through so if you can split it you have dry wood (scrape to make first stage tinder, then split or carve for fuel), however you can easily get enough rain to soak wood which is covered in layers of boughs and other debris. Or just gather some vetegation for food, ropes, bedding or clothing and compare ripped it up with your hands to cutting it with a knife in terms of effort and time spent (not to mention damage to the vegetation which influences cord and other utilization such as baskets and such).
And now you have just broken one of the basic rules of fire building which is to have a fire wall around the fire. You generally only do that when fires can not spread such as *very* wet conditions or a lot of snow. Note fire can burn inside of a piece of wood and thus travel down it even if not immedately readily visible on the outside.
V Shrake :
The question was open ended, it didn't simply ask which one worked best on thick wood. Brush cutting (1-2" wood and lighter vegetation) is important for shelter construction, fire building, signaling, food, and misc. tools (ropes, baskets, snow shoes). It thus encompasses all aspects of survivial or outdoor living, so should be considered carefully in any such discussion.
The edge angles will be similar, however the edge thickness and overall bit/blade geometry will be very different. Specifically a quality long blade for this type of work will have the edge about 0.025" thick and above this goes into a full grind of 3-5 degrees, the axe above this level (0.025") thickens many times faster than the blade. More specific information can be senn in the reviews as I have plotted the cross sections of a few quality axes and various blades.
A hatchet by the way is simply a type of axe, specifically a small axe.
The most hilarious part of this astute comment is that it doesn't even fit in with the posts I made in this very thread (let alone to general comments made). Specifically in the above I stated thick wood chopping is rarely necessary and that other use would be more important and for those uses there are better tools, this is the *exact opposite* of the character generalization implied.
Not to mention of course that I carry a Rucksack daily, and have commented many times in the past about its high cutting ability due to the blade geometry, the efficiency of SAK saws, and the utilization of other tools (flat screwdriver to wood chisel), and its review I think is positive.
Of course such comments by V Shrake rarely have anything to do with the reality of what is written.
-Cliff
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Cliff,
The "Large Knives" I had in mind are the ones I've tried to use here as a compromise between a machete and a sheath knife, a Gerber BMF copy, Ka-bar, Large Trailmaster-size Bowie. For camp chores you get by fine but not for travel in dense brush, they just wear you out.
I'm actually actively trying to find a Martindale Golok #2, that looks to be about perfect for the type of chores I encounter most. I don't consider it a knife though, more like a different machete. Do you know of any distributer in Pennsylvania or a website? I'm moving back to PA in a week and I'll have a year to shop for gear before heading back to Brazil. Mac
The "Large Knives" I had in mind are the ones I've tried to use here as a compromise between a machete and a sheath knife, a Gerber BMF copy, Ka-bar, Large Trailmaster-size Bowie. For camp chores you get by fine but not for travel in dense brush, they just wear you out.
I'm actually actively trying to find a Martindale Golok #2, that looks to be about perfect for the type of chores I encounter most. I don't consider it a knife though, more like a different machete. Do you know of any distributer in Pennsylvania or a website? I'm moving back to PA in a week and I'll have a year to shop for gear before heading back to Brazil. Mac
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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Yeah most of the large tactical knives are really heavy in hand and the edges are too thick and obtuse to handle wood working in general, they just beat brush around and do a job on your wrist, great if you want a workout, not so practical if you want to actually cut something.
Daren Custforth carries a huge line of Martindale products including the Golok :
http://www.cutsforthknives.com/
-Cliff
Daren Custforth carries a huge line of Martindale products including the Golok :
http://www.cutsforthknives.com/
-Cliff
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- Dec 13, 2003
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- 29
Living in Upstate NY, and having Mohawk blood in my veins, I've always carried a sturdy sheathknife and a hatchet or tomahawk as a part of my wilderness kit.
I started (in the 70's)out with a 40's vintage camillus sheathknife and either an estwing hachet or a tru-temper scout hatchet.
Later a USAF survival knife, buck 110, and either the estwing or the tru temper hatchet.
Late 80's til now Cold steel SRK blade blasted and phosphated,kydex sheath Leatherman tool (started out with the original and now the wave), and a hand forged tomahwak one of the local bladesmith/blacksmiths made for me.
I'm thinking of lighening my load on this 39 year old body by either going with a Becker Brute or RTAK. what do you think?
I started (in the 70's)out with a 40's vintage camillus sheathknife and either an estwing hachet or a tru-temper scout hatchet.
Later a USAF survival knife, buck 110, and either the estwing or the tru temper hatchet.
Late 80's til now Cold steel SRK blade blasted and phosphated,kydex sheath Leatherman tool (started out with the original and now the wave), and a hand forged tomahwak one of the local bladesmith/blacksmiths made for me.
I'm thinking of lighening my load on this 39 year old body by either going with a Becker Brute or RTAK. what do you think?
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Adirondak1,
You might try using the "Search" function to check previous posts on "RTAK" or "Brute AND Becker." I seem to recall that the RTAK is better in jungle than as a wood chopper.
As many have said before - and in this thread - it all depends on what you're going to do. What tasks do you anticipate?
Chopping wood for fire and shelter? I own a Brute and have found khukuris to be better as choppers. I'd try a khuk + SAK or multi-tool + folding saw (example, Fiskars). To lighten that, depending on tasks anticipated, a mid-weight but stout knife like a Fallkniven S-1 (5" blade; .194" thick; 260 grams in sheath) might replace the khuk -- the saw being the exclusive tool to get the wood and the knife to split it to get at the interior, with batoning as required. Such a minimal kit would probably run under a pound. Many have done more with less.
You might try using the "Search" function to check previous posts on "RTAK" or "Brute AND Becker." I seem to recall that the RTAK is better in jungle than as a wood chopper.
As many have said before - and in this thread - it all depends on what you're going to do. What tasks do you anticipate?
Chopping wood for fire and shelter? I own a Brute and have found khukuris to be better as choppers. I'd try a khuk + SAK or multi-tool + folding saw (example, Fiskars). To lighten that, depending on tasks anticipated, a mid-weight but stout knife like a Fallkniven S-1 (5" blade; .194" thick; 260 grams in sheath) might replace the khuk -- the saw being the exclusive tool to get the wood and the knife to split it to get at the interior, with batoning as required. Such a minimal kit would probably run under a pound. Many have done more with less.
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"the saw being the exclusive tool to get the wood and the knife to split it to get at the interior, with batoning as required. Such a minimal kit would probably run under a pound. Many have done more with less."
TL, I agree. 7" folding saw, 7" Leuku and 4" Puukko. What can't you do with this combination? I have taken down 6" trees about 25' tall with this on my property. I have cut 9" plus downed dead trees for fire wood with the saw. I collected enough firewood on a camping trip to burn all night in about 15 minutes. Try to do that with anything but a large ax and it will take forever. Nothing beats a saw for speed and saving energy. Saws are not glamorous so people do not talk about them that much. If youre into minimalist wilderness travel, this set-up only weighs 20 oz.
If you like hatchets, substitute a GB Mini Belt Ax for the Leuku. The set-up will only weigh 25 oz. A large 9" to 10" chopper weighs 2 lbs with a sheath and a one tool set-up does not work as efficient as the three tools do.
Carry what you like, this is just my opinion and what works for me.
Geoff
TL, I agree. 7" folding saw, 7" Leuku and 4" Puukko. What can't you do with this combination? I have taken down 6" trees about 25' tall with this on my property. I have cut 9" plus downed dead trees for fire wood with the saw. I collected enough firewood on a camping trip to burn all night in about 15 minutes. Try to do that with anything but a large ax and it will take forever. Nothing beats a saw for speed and saving energy. Saws are not glamorous so people do not talk about them that much. If youre into minimalist wilderness travel, this set-up only weighs 20 oz.
If you like hatchets, substitute a GB Mini Belt Ax for the Leuku. The set-up will only weigh 25 oz. A large 9" to 10" chopper weighs 2 lbs with a sheath and a one tool set-up does not work as efficient as the three tools do.
Carry what you like, this is just my opinion and what works for me.
Geoff
Amen! I went on a canoe trip with 15 people into the wilds of northern Canada last summer. Most of our tools were communal, but you could say my "kit" was a take-down buck saw (when taken [or took?] down was a 30" very light steel or aluminum tube), a hatchet and sheath knife. The hatchet was used sparingly- the saw did most of the work, and a lot- and I mean a lot- quicker then the hatchet or even a large axe would have. It was much more convenient, less fatigueing, etc.
Axes definately have their place, but, in my opinion, that place is beside a good saw.