Have steels really improved that much since ATS-34 15 years ago???

kestrel57

kestrel57

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Question from a neophyte. I read that ATS-34 is basically the same as 154. 154 is still highly regarded (basically U.S. ATS-34 as I understand it) and still in many good production knives such as the ZT 0200 and many Benchmades. S30V is seemingly the new 154 (ATS-34) and I presume it is moderately better at both edge retention and ability to successfully hold a narrow angle (be sharper without breaking if I have that right --- I might not). If it isn't better in both of these ways, how is it better? And how much better? Moreover, long edge retention steels are harder to sharpen in most cases. Then there is S35V. Supposedly better than S30V anyway --- although some will still prefer S30V until S35V is proven (or not). Super-steels apparently exist such as S90V and M390. But they cost more in most cases and are probably harder to sharpen (maybe sharpening machinery has advanced more than the steel?; of course it will cost more, too --- $275 for a wicked edge, hopefully with the right stones).

The cheap Swedish steels/grinds are still out there. Super sharp, lose their edge, easy to resharpen. I suppose some will swear by these.

I notice D2 is till around and apparently doing well in the Adamas, HEST, and any Bob Dozier.

Are there just more choices or have steels really improved? Or just heat treats? Or nothing? And what exactly is improvement? And are the "improved" blades twice the price in some cases?

Serious question and not looking to start a steel battle or wonder if newer steels are better or if there are just more choices (with trade-offs)?

Tx. (Go easy on me :-) ).
 
OK, but how different? One is powdered? Sizable difference? Or am I off base. Tx.
 
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I'm not sure steels have changed, or improved, in that period. Maybe, today more people are better informed. Perhaps a more pertinent question would be has knowledge of steel and of heat treatment improved?
 
I recently had a chance to compare two almost identical bowies, one in W2 steel and the other in 3V. I couldn't control the heat treat, but the bowies were from the same maker. The W2 had a slightly less acute edge (35 degrees inclusive, but convex). The 3V I ground down to a more acute 30 degree (inclusive) V edge. In chopping on the same chunk of firewood, the W2 suffered visible edge damage on each hard swing. No damage on the 3V, and the more acute edge allowed it to chop through the wood much more aggressively. In that case, the steel made a big difference.

But there are so many different factors that go into blade-steel performance, including geometry, hardness and the task involved, that comparisons are difficult. I really like the old steel 52100 because it takes a beautiful edge and holds it pretty well. The new M390 is a favorite because it takes a nice edge, is easy to resharpen and it holds an edge very well. And it's stainless.

A lot of people say the differences between the steels are too small to matter, and that's probably true for safe queens or lightly used EDCs. But I find quite a bit of differences, especially in the ability of the better steels to hold a more acute edge. One of my kitchen knives is Aogomie super blue with a hardness of 64 HRc and an extremely thin blade. It's easy to resharpen, holds the edge really well and cuts like a laser.

On EDCs, I have a limited range of designs that I like -- Military, AFCK, 0560, Rukus, Onslaught, the original Manix, Sebenza. When I see a new steel come out in a favored design, it's difficult to resist, just because it's so much fun to try out a hot new steel in an old favorite knife. But if you don't enjoy the hobby, yeah, pretty much any knife will do.
 
Rapt_up said:
Look here.... http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope

And see where the various steels fall in testing of edge retention.
Click to expand...


Thanks Rapt_up; thanks Ankerson. (A lot of great work evidently!)

Better edge retention but to what extent (20% per category?), are there trade-offs (sharpening, toughness if that's the right word, and is everything else held equal such as Rockwell/heat treat and whatever I haven't thought of), and what about price? I've seen some sprint runs at high prices (2011 Manix 2?), primarily due to different steel (different colored handles don't do it for me as a price differentiater) and wonder if these are more marketing than actual use except for experts and heavy users? Could a knife with better steel perform better or worse than expected? Say, Cold Steel's Aus 8 being better than another brand's? Do I really need 8 Paramilitaries and 8 Manix's and several Benchmades in the same knife to keep up.

I guess part of the answer is that it's complicated. :-)


I admit there is a fun factor (I feel it, but I'm not even good at sharpening yet.) I do enjoy looking at different steels and their performance (I don't have anything near ankerson's ability --- all I can do is read and try a cardboard box). I just wonder if sometimes people (including myself) get hung up on different types of steel --- have they improved that much from 15 years ago? --- perhaps not meaningfully for a beginner like me) and wait for, say, the Manix to change to S30V from cpm154 --- when all but the most skilled won't notice a difference. Or someone like me lusts after S90V which I cannot even attempt to sharpen if it is too hard and it can almost double the price of a "sprint" run or the secondary market price. Bring in the Carpenter's and European's and Japanese only's and what do we have? Real differences? Minor differences? You pay for what you get? You can't sharpen it?

Just asking. Maybe I'm too simplistic and a little knowledge is dangerous. Not flaming. Feel free to shoot me down (gently if possible). I'll understand if ignored on such a topic. :-) And, as said, complicated with many factors involved.

P.S. I seem to remember a respected knife editor from maybe 15 years ago complaining that Benchmade's improved M2 (maybe on the AFCK 800? --- my favorite folder ever) was too hard to sharpen (or to sharpen in the field). I could "misremember" (thanks Roger Clemens :) ).
 
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kestrel57 said:
How different? One is powdered? Real difference in use or in the lab? Sizable difference? Or am I off base. If so, how much better is S90V than cpm154 --- especially on a price basis? Tx.
Click to expand...

Basically CPM-154 and 154CM are the same in composition. However, CPM-154 will be tougher due to a finer carbide distribution over 154CM. Both have similar wear properties. Based off charts, S90V appears to be over twice as wear resistant as CPM154. Also D2 has been around since WW2, so its been around for awhile.
 
The question you ask with W2 is what kind of edge "damage" did you see? Typically it rolls or at worst, "dents" Some say that it is often left too soft.
Twindog said:
I recently had a chance to compare two almost identical bowies, one in W2 steel and the other in 3V. I couldn't control the heat treat, but the bowies were from the same maker. The W2 had a slightly less acute edge (35 degrees inclusive, but convex). The 3V I ground down to a more acute 30 degree (inclusive) V edge. In chopping on the same chunk of firewood, the W2 suffered visible edge damage on each hard swing. No damage on the 3V, and the more acute edge allowed it to chop through the wood much more aggressively. In that case, the steel made a big difference.

But there are so many different factors that go into blade-steel performance, including geometry, hardness and the task involved, that comparisons are difficult. I really like the old steel 52100 because it takes a beautiful edge and holds it pretty well. The new M390 is a favorite because it takes a nice edge, is easy to resharpen and it holds an edge very well. And it's stainless.

A lot of people say the differences between the steels are too small to matter, and that's probably true for safe queens or lightly used EDCs. But I find quite a bit of differences, especially in the ability of the better steels to hold a more acute edge. One of my kitchen knives is Aogomie super blue with a hardness of 64 HRc and an extremely thin blade. It's easy to resharpen, holds the edge really well and cuts like a laser.

On EDCs, I have a limited range of designs that I like -- Military, AFCK, 0560, Rukus, Onslaught, the original Manix, Sebenza. When I see a new steel come out in a favored design, it's difficult to resist, just because it's so much fun to try out a hot new steel in an old favorite knife. But if you don't enjoy the hobby, yeah, pretty much any knife will do.
Click to expand...
 
kestrel57 said:
Question from a neophyte. I read that ATS-34 is basically the same as 154. 154 is still highly regarded (basically U.S. ATS-34 as I understand it) and still in many good production knives such as the ZT 0200 and many Benchmades. S30V is seemingly the new 154 (ATS-34) and I presume it is moderately better at both edge retention and ability to successfully hold a narrow angle (be sharper without breaking if I have that right --- I might not). If it isn't better in both of these ways, how is it better? And how much better? Moreover, long edge retention steels are harder to sharpen in most cases. Then there is S35V. Supposedly better than S30V anyway --- although some will still prefer S30V until S35V is proven (or not). Super-steels apparently exist such as S90V and M390. But they cost more in most cases and are probably harder to sharpen (maybe sharpening machinery has advanced more than the steel?; of course it will cost more, too --- $275 for a wicked edge, hopefully with the right stones).

The cheap Swedish steels/grinds are still out there. Super sharp, lose their edge, easy to resharpen. I suppose some will swear by these.

I notice D2 is till around and apparently doing well in the Adamas, HEST, and any Bob Dozier.

Are there just more choices or have steels really improved? Or just heat treats? Or nothing? And what exactly is improvement? And are the "improved" blades twice the price in some cases?

Serious question and not looking to start a steel battle or wonder if newer steels are better or if there are just more choices (with trade-offs)?

Tx. (Go easy on me :-) ).
Click to expand...


A lot of steels have been around for a very long time now like 154CM/ATS-34 has and longer.

CPM S90V, CPM 10V have been around for VERY long time for example, decades.

Some new steels like CTS-XHP for example are improvements over ATS-34.
 
The question is usually better at what. You can look at edge retention, ease of sharpening, toughness, stain resistance and price. I quite like AUS8 because it offers a good balance. CTS-XHP is another steel I love as it's tough, stain resistant, easy to sharpen and holds a heckler of an edge. It's expensive, though. That's a tradeoff I'm sometimes willing to make.
 
read this...
http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets2010/dsS30Vv1 2010.pdf

and this...

http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets2010/dsD2v12010.pdf

seems steels have changed, as well as the science/art of heat treating. Check out the data for Transverse Charpy C-notch Testing of s30v in relation to 154 or 440c. think about what that means for edge stability and what you could get away with in terms of edge geometry. Also take a look at the edge retention and corrosion resistance in relation to 154cm and 440c. Think about what that corrosion resistance means in terms of an edge holding up during food prep or taking down an animal.

In the other data sheet, check out how older d2 performs for our uses in relation to cpm-m4 in toughness and wear resistance. Look not only at the bar graph, but at the data under "mechanical properties". Check out how cpm-m4 performs on the charpy c-notch and crossed cylinder adhesive wear test in relation to d2 or other steels. CPM-M4 really has an amazing balance of toughness and edge retention...although may lack in corrosion resistance.

It's important to note that like any technology, many of the newer steels haven't really made it big on the production side of knife making yet as they're not that common/easy to get and still have lots of unknowns that need to be worked out in terms of ideal blade geometry to match the steel and heat treating. Some steels may be great, but not cost effective to produce to a consistent standard.
 
smokey0118 said:
read this...
http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets2010/dsS30Vv1 2010.pdf

and this...

http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets2010/dsD2v12010.pdf

seems steels have changed, as well as the science/art of heat treating. Check out the data for Transverse Charpy C-notch Testing of s30v in relation to 154 or 440c. think about what that means for edge stability and what you could get away with in terms of edge geometry. Also take a look at the edge retention and corrosion resistance in relation to 154cm and 440c. Think about what that corrosion resistance means in terms of an edge holding up during food prep or taking down an animal.

In the other data sheet, check out how older d2 performs for our uses in relation to cpm-m4 in toughness and wear resistance. Look not only at the bar graph, but at the data under "mechanical properties". Check out how cpm-m4 performs on the charpy c-notch and crossed cylinder adhesive wear test in relation to d2 or other steels. CPM-M4 really has an amazing balance of toughness and edge retention...although may lack in corrosion resistance.

It's important to note that like any technology, many of the newer steels haven't really made it big on the production side of knife making yet as they're not that common/easy to get and still have lots of unknowns that need to be worked out in terms of ideal blade geometry to match the steel and heat treating. Some steels may be great, but not cost effective to produce to a consistent standard.
Click to expand...

Excellent post. All steels have trade offs. And the trade off for the ones with overall high performance is high cost.
 
Steels can be very different but a custom knife maker told me he has to make knives according to the demand not the best steel. He said many people have a great knowledge about steel types but hardly ever use them. I'm not saying in anyway that those who have commented here on forum are in this class because there is a wealth of great knowledge from some great guys that use their knives on a regular basis. The custom maker knows Chris Reeve well and said if Mr. Reeve started making knives in 440C that the industry would follow. He made a point when he told me that almost all his knives ended up in safe's anyway. My point is just get the blade out and give it a try because you will find out quick what you like and dislike. Each application if different. Enjoy the blades.
 
I like this thread. It got me thinking, will we be thumbing our noses up at S90V, ELMAX, CTS-XHP, M390, cpm154, etc. in 15 years from now, like we currently do with AUS-8 and other similar steels?
 
I think I'm getting it. Yes, improvements. Perhaps a gradual process with continued trade-offs but steels are getting better and becoming more mainstream. And the making of the steels is becoming better (say, better heat treating).

Trickle down from custom to production has happened and will continue to happen.

A main measure of a steel seems to be edge retention, especially if all other qualities can be held constant or even improved. Like more MPG in a car and less pollution at the same time. Makes sense.

A lot of smart people here --- thanks for your help. :thumbup:

Best
 
Or perhaps a better question is "Have knife steels improved so much that it would really make a difference to the average knife user?"

I don't imagine that there are many buffalo skinners here who need to perform a lot of cutting as quickly as possible so they can get out of the area before the indians attack. I'm sure that there are people who cut a lot of cardboard but I don't imagine they have to do it with incredible speed like their lives depend on it. Who really wouldn't have time to touch-up the edge on their blade.

I'd really be curious to know what a person is using their knife for if they consider ATS-34 to be unsuitable or inferior.

Naturally in any interest there will always be people who want whatever is advertised or touted as the "best" or the "newest" and will be willing to spend whatever they have to to get it.

I imagine there are a lot of expensive knives with the very latest super steels that probably don't get used for much more than letter openers.

But to each there own. It's their money so they can spend it any way they want.
 
Planetcat said:
I like this thread. It got me thinking, will we be thumbing our noses up at S90V, ELMAX, CTS-XHP, M390, cpm154, etc. in 15 years from now, like we currently do with AUS-8 and other similar steels?
Click to expand...

I doubt it as the best steels have been around for a very long time.

CPM 10V was Crucibles 1st PM steel, back in the late 70's I believe.

CPM 15V - 1990

CPM 3V - 1997

Rex 121 - 1998

CPM S90V - 1999

CPM S30V - 2001

CPM S125V - 2004

CPM S110V - 2005


Some of them haven't been used in knives all that much other than customs so they might be new to some and I really doubt people would be thumbing their noses at the likes of 10V, 15V, S110V, S125V and S90V for a very, very, very long time.
 
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