Have steels really improved that much since ATS-34 15 years ago???

[Ankerson]

Or perhaps a better question is "Have knife steels improved so much that it would really make a difference to the average knife user?"

I don't imagine that there are many buffalo skinners here who need to perform a lot of cutting as quickly as possible so they can get out of the area before the indians attack. I'm sure that there are people who cut a lot of cardboard but I don't imagine they have to do it with incredible speed like their lives depend on it. Who really wouldn't have time to touch-up the edge on their blade.

I'd really be curious to know what a person is using their knife for if they consider ATS-34 to be unsuitable or inferior.

Naturally in any interest there will always be people who want whatever is advertised or touted as the "best" or the "newest" and will be willing to spend whatever they have to to get it.

I imagine there are a lot of expensive knives with the very latest super steels that probably don't get used for much more than letter openers.

But to each there own. It's their money so they can spend it any way they want.

I doubt people are saying ATS-34 unsuitable, but there are steels that will hold an edge for a lot longer that are available so given a choice some will go with performance while others may not.

Newest is really funny looking at how long some of the steels have been around that are at the top or near the top edge retention wise.

 

[Steel130]

I doubt it as the best steels have been around for a very long time.

CPM 10V was Crucibles 1st PM steel, back in the late 70's I believe.

CPM 15V - 1990

CPM 3V - 1997

Rex 121 - 1998

CPM S90V - 1999

CPM S30V - 2001

CPM S125V - 2004

CPM S110V - 2005


Some of them haven't been used in knives all that much other than customs so they might be new to some and I really doubt people would be thumbing their noses at the likes of 10V, 15V, S110V, S125V and S90V for a very, very, very long time.

By the time we are all thumbing our noses up at that. We will probably have folding lightsabers in our pockets .

 

[marthinus]

IMO the powdered version of ATS-34: RWL-34 and the equivalent CPM-154 are the current best balanced steels available on the market.

A balance between attainable hardness, edge retention, strength, toughness, corrosion resistance and edge stability.

With other steels it becomes a give and take between those properties IMO.

 

[smokey0118]

ankerson, Steel production and alloys may have changed how they've changed...but how has heat treatment progressed recently? I'd imagine the ability to have computer controlled, digital furnaces and progress in cryo treatment tech have had a positive impact on steels today. If nothing else, I'd imagine it would allow knife makers to more consistently apply heat treatments to more challenging steels while also making it more cost effective to work with them. I'm fairly ignorant in this area and look forward to learning more about the progress in this part of production.

 

[hardheart]

Heat treat isn't any newer, either. Blades are very thin cross sections compared to most other tool and die items. Knives don't need ultrasonic agitaton of the quench medium, and that would be one of the newer things to try. Cryo has been around, just like everything else wowing us with pocket knives and not mass manufacturing facilities.

 

[dano]

In day to day normal (I.E. non-You Tube video use), the difference is marginal, and not really noticeable. It has become a huge marketing ploy, and in some aspects, ruined the hobby.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

In day to day normal (I.E. non-You Tube video use), the difference is marginal, and not really noticeable. It has become a huge marketing ploy, and in some aspects, ruined the hobby.

I don't really agree. I notice a significant difference between a blade in S30V and one in M390 even with relatively light use. If I had to guess I'd say I sharpen S30V almost twice as frequently.

 

[mkjellgren]

I don't really agree. I notice a significant difference between a blade in S30V and one in M390 even with relatively light use. If I had to guess I'd say I sharpen S30V almost twice as frequently

I agree. I see a huge difference between middle of the road (s30v, 154cm, vg10) steels and high end stuff like m390 and cpm-m4. I can get m4 significantly sharper than any other steel I've used, and m390 holds an excellent edge almost indefinitely with just a bit of upkeep. With my uses, I need to sharpen knives with s30v,154cm, or vg10 every day after work. I can get away with sharpening m390 and m4 once every couple weeks with a few stropping sessions about every other day.

 

[Steel130]

I agree. I see a huge difference between middle of the road (s30v, 154cm, vg10) steels and high end stuff like m390 and cpm-m4. I can get m4 significantly sharper than any other steel I've used, and m390 holds an excellent edge almost indefinitely with just a bit of upkeep. With my uses, I need to sharpen knives with s30v,154cm, or vg10 every day after work. I can get away with sharpening m390 and m4 once every couple weeks with a few stropping sessions about every other day.

I too have to second this. I can notice the difference between 14C28N, S30V, and CTS-XHP. CTS I can make it some time before I need to resharpen it. I will give it a few strokes on a fine stone to bring the edge back to crispness. I also have had no trouble sharpening the new" Super Steels ".

 

[killgar]

I agree. I see a huge difference between middle of the road (s30v, 154cm, vg10) steels and high end stuff like m390 and cpm-m4. I can get m4 significantly sharper than any other steel I've used,

Could you please enlighten me, just how much sharper are you able to get m4 than those other steels? I have blades made of s30v, 154cm, and vg10, and I can shave with all of them. I'm curious to know what method you use to measure sharpness that tells you that m4 can get "significantly sharper".

and m390 holds an excellent edge almost indefinitely with just a bit of upkeep. With my uses, I need to sharpen knives with s30v,154cm, or vg10 every day after work. I can get away with sharpening m390 and m4 once every couple weeks with a few stropping sessions about every other day.

Could you also tell me what type of cutting you do at work that produces such results?

I don't have any knives made of m390 or m4 and I'd like to know just what they are capable of before shelling out the money. I mean, if m4 can get sharper than s30v, 154cm, and vg10, that must be one hell of a sharp edge. Like atom-cutting sharp.

 

[hardheart]

M4 has a lower carbide volume and higher working hardness, so it is pretty easy to get very sharp. All steels can get sharp, some just demonstrate the increased sharpness with less work on the stones compared to others. That is generally what is being communicated, tht the level of sharpness for the given amount of sharpening time is higher, not that differences in the absolute attainable sharpness is so easily noticed.

 

[mkjellgren]

Could you please enlighten me, just how much sharper are you able to get m4 than those other steels? I have blades made of s30v, 154cm, and vg10, and I can shave with all of them. I'm curious to know what method you use to measure sharpness that tells you that m4 can get "significantly sharper".

Could you also tell me what type of cutting you do at work that produces such results?

I don't have any knives made of m390 or m4 and I'd like to know just what they are capable of before shelling out the money. I mean, if m4 can get sharper than s30v, 154cm, and vg10, that must be one hell of a sharp edge. Like atom-cutting sharp.

There are a number of ways to display sharpness beyond shaving sharp. Hair whittling (especially from root to tip), tp slicing, push cutting paper towel, and a few other things are only capable with edges significant sharper than "shaving sharp". When I sharpen a knife I usually stop at hair whittling, as any further degree of sharpness requires quite a bit of patience, luck, and a very steady hand (I actually find I sharpen better after a few beers...). With m4 however, I find on am very often capable of edges that refuse to whittle hair, not because they are too dull, but because they instantly sever the hair on contact. To me, that is significantly sharper than I am capable on a regular basis with most other steels. As mentioned above, any steel can be made extremely sharp, but very carbide rich steels have a harder time taking an extremely refined edge. M4,with its low carbide volume and high attainable hardness mean you can achieve a very fine edge.

In terms of what I do at work with my knives that benefits from the edge holding seen in steels like m4 and m390, it's mostly cardboard, plastic and paper bags, zip ties, and sometimes rope or canvas. I cook for a college so most food, fresh or otherwise, comes packaged in some way shape or form, I need to get into those packages as well as break down the boxes. All in all I probably break down 20-30 cardboard boxes a day.

I refuse to carry a knife that will not cleanly shave arm hair and push cut phone book paper. At the end of a work day, in my experience, my knives in S30V and 154cm often need a touch up on the stones to do either of those things. M390 and m4 on the other hand will cut phone book paper effortlessly and return to hair whittling with a few minutes on the strop.

Also, in my experience, both m390 and m4 are easier to sharpen than s30v. Not as easy as vg10 though.

 

[Steel130]

There are a number of ways to display sharpness beyond shaving sharp. Hair whittling (especially from root to tip), tp slicing, push cutting paper towel, and a few other things are only capable with edges significant sharper than "shaving sharp". When I sharpen a knife I usually stop at hair whittling, as any further degree of sharpness requires quite a bit of patience, luck, and a very steady hand (I actually find I sharpen better after a few beers...). With m4 however, I find on am very often capable of edges that refuse to whittle hair, not because they are too dull, but because they instantly sever the hair on contact. To me, that is significantly sharper than I am capable on a regular basis with most other steels. As mentioned above, any steel can be made extremely sharp, but very carbide rich steels have a harder time taking an extremely refined edge. M4,with its low carbide volume and high attainable hardness mean you can achieve a very fine edge.

.

I have found the same thing with Super Blue. The edge I can easily achieve will tree top hair no problem. For me to get CTS-XHP this sharp would take alot more time stropping I think. I stop with CTS when it whittles hair.

 

[Huntsman Knife Co. LLC.]

I can tell the difference between a steel like ATS 34 and a steel like M390 even if its just EDC. The biggest difference that I notice is how a steel wears. Low carbide, or simple steels wear smooth like a ball bearing after alot of hard cutting and totally lose their ability to cut quickly. Take a 1095 knife and cut up a bunch of cardboard with it and it will end up very dull with a smooth edge that has no cutting ability. Take a steel like 10V and cut a ton of cardboard with it and even when its dull it still will cut. High carbide steels can still cut after they are really, really dull. Traditional steels not only lose their edge way faster but when they get dull they completely lose their ability to cut. Say you were in an emergency and had to cut a rope. Really dull 1095 my not be able to cut it. Really dull 10V will still have a hack saw like matrix of carbides that will enable it to catch and tear the rope fibers and thus cut it.

I also think its awesome that 10V is decades old and can still hang with anything out there edge retention wise. :thumbup:

 

[Ankerson]

I can tell the difference between a steel like ATS 34 and a steel like M390 even if its just EDC. The biggest difference that I notice is how a steel wears. Low carbide, or simple steels wear smooth like a ball bearing after alot of hard cutting and totally lose their ability to cut quickly. Take a 1095 knife and cut up a bunch of cardboard with it and it will end up very dull with a smooth edge that has no cutting ability. Take a steel like 10V and cut a ton of cardboard with it and even when its dull it still will cut. High carbide steels can still cut after they are really, really dull. Traditional steels not only lose their edge way faster but when they get dull they completely lose their ability to cut. Say you were in an emergency and had to cut a rope. Really dull 1095 my not be able to cut it. Really dull 10V will still have a hack saw like matrix of carbides that will enable it to catch and tear the rope fibers and thus cut it.

I also think its awesome that 10V is decades old and can still hang with anything out there edge retention wise. :thumbup:

A11 (10V/K294) is at the top of the food chain along with 15V, the only thing that beats it I believe is REX-121.

10V and K294 are amazing steels that will just keep on going for it seems forever.... Literally.

 

[Ankerson]

In day to day normal (I.E. non-You Tube video use), the difference is marginal, and not really noticeable. It has become a huge marketing ploy, and in some aspects, ruined the hobby.

Not for those who really use their knives.... Like some of us really do on a daily basis.

There is a very noticeable difference between the steels like 154CM/ATS-34 range steels and ones like M390 and S90V range, especially when cutting more abrasive materials.

Don't kid yourself thinking differently.

Steels like M390, 10V, S90V, S110V, S125V, and 15V are used in the plastics industry were the environment is extremely abrasive.

They make commercial cutters out of 10V (A11), that stuff is no joke...

 

[kestrel57]

There are a number of ways to display sharpness beyond shaving sharp. Hair whittling (especially from root to tip), tp slicing, push cutting paper towel, and a few other things are only capable with edges significant sharper than "shaving sharp". When I sharpen a knife I usually stop at hair whittling, as any further degree of sharpness requires quite a bit of patience, luck, and a very steady hand (I actually find I sharpen better after a few beers...). With m4 however, I find on am very often capable of edges that refuse to whittle hair, not because they are too dull, but because they instantly sever the hair on contact. To me, that is significantly sharper than I am capable on a regular basis with most other steels. As mentioned above, any steel can be made extremely sharp, but very carbide rich steels have a harder time taking an extremely refined edge. M4,with its low carbide volume and high attainable hardness mean you can achieve a very fine edge.

In terms of what I do at work with my knives that benefits from the edge holding seen in steels like m4 and m390, it's mostly cardboard, plastic and paper bags, zip ties, and sometimes rope or canvas. I cook for a college so most food, fresh or otherwise, comes packaged in some way shape or form, I need to get into those packages as well as break down the boxes. All in all I probably break down 20-30 cardboard boxes a day.

I refuse to carry a knife that will not cleanly shave arm hair and push cut phone book paper. At the end of a work day, in my experience, my knives in S30V and 154cm often need a touch up on the stones to do either of those things. M390 and m4 on the other hand will cut phone book paper effortlessly and return to hair whittling with a few minutes on the strop.

Also, in my experience, both m390 and m4 are easier to sharpen than s30v. Not as easy as vg10 though.

Why would M4 be easier to sharpen than S30V? Isn't M4 a harder steel?

Have you ever considered a serrated knife (Endura or something for work --- or it just doesn't work well for you).

Finally, any sharpening product you'd recommend (if allowable by BF rules). Tx.

 

[dano]

Not for those who really use their knives.... Like some of us really do on a daily basis.

There is a very noticeable difference between the steels like 154CM/ATS-34 range steels and ones like M390 and S90V range, especially when cutting more abrasive materials.

Don't kid yourself thinking differently.

Steels like M390, 10V, S90V, S110V, S125V, and 15V are used in the plastics industry were the environment is extremely abrasive.

They make commercial cutters out of 10V (A11), that stuff is no joke...

Recently, at an auto accident, I cut the front bumper off a 90's vintage Honda with an old-school GIN-1 Spyderco Endura. I've used my AFO in ATS-34 for years, cutting all sorts of stuff, and it has worked fine. I doubt I would have any performance difference with any of the "new" steels. Sure, I can sharpen the newer stuff to some acute angle, or not have to worry about edge wear, but I don't see a huge advantage when picking a knife. I'd much rather worry about lock type, carry-ability, manufacturing quality, factory support, than carbide and grain structure.

 

[Ankerson]

Why would M4 be easier to sharpen than S30V? Isn't M4 a harder steel?

Have you ever considered a serrated knife (Endura or something for work --- or it just doesn't work well for you).

Finally, any sharpening product you'd recommend (if allowable by BF rules). Tx.

Not understanding what you mean by a harder steel......?

Been hearing this term used more lately on YT.

 

[mkjellgren]

Why would M4 be easier to sharpen than S30V? Isn't M4 a harder steel?

Have you ever considered a serrated knife (Endura or something for work --- or it just doesn't work well for you).

Finally, any sharpening product you'd recommend (if allowable by BF rules). Tx.

Yes, m4 has a higher attainable hardness than s30v, but has fewer carbides. Hardness isn't the only thing that impacts ease or difficulty of sharpening. There is a lot of variables that contribute to a steel's performance. The high carbide volume in S30V is what makes it hold its working edge for a very long time, perhaps longer than m4, but the high carbide volume also means it is highly wear resistant, meaning difficult to sharpen. M4 with take and hold a razor edge better than s30v due to its low carbide volume and high hardness, but the low carbide volume means it will not have as much bite after the razor edge has deteriorated. However, it's lower carbide count means m4 is not as difficult to sharpen as s30v,even at higher hardness ratings.

As for carrying a serrated knife...i do. I carry a fully serrated h1 dragonfly in addition to a larger plain edge blade every day. It does come in handy at times, but overall I just like the performance of a plain edge better. I like clean cuts, they are easier to control. Serrated edges, even very sharp ones, tend to shred material rather than cleanly cut it. I can't be having bits of plastic shredded off into the food I'm cooking.

In terms of sharpening equipment, I freehand. I've settled with dmt diasharp stones for the coarser grits and spyderco's ceramics for the finer grits. The dmt stones make easy work of reprofiling these modern super steels, and the spyderco ceramics do an excellent job of polishing and burnishing the edge. My progression is dmt coarse - > dmt fine - > spyderco medium - > spyderco fine - > spyderco ultrafine. I finish on my stropman hd compact strop loaded with white (aluminum oxide), and green (chromium oxide), compound.