Have steels really improved that much since ATS-34 15 years ago???

[parbajtor]

Or perhaps a better question is "Have knife steels improved so much that it would really make a difference to the average knife user?"

I don't imagine that there are many buffalo skinners here who need to perform a lot of cutting as quickly as possible so they can get out of the area before the indians attack. I'm sure that there are people who cut a lot of cardboard but I don't imagine they have to do it with incredible speed like their lives depend on it. Who really wouldn't have time to touch-up the edge on their blade.

I'd really be curious to know what a person is using their knife for if they consider ATS-34 to be unsuitable or inferior.

Naturally in any interest there will always be people who want whatever is advertised or touted as the "best" or the "newest" and will be willing to spend whatever they have to to get it.

I imagine there are a lot of expensive knives with the very latest super steels that probably don't get used for much more than letter openers.

But to each there own. It's their money so they can spend it any way they want.

We reached that situation about 4years ago with computers, but that doesn't seem to have quelled the rush to go out and buy the latest octo-core 15 gHz motherboard with a Tb of ram in it. And the newer OS's these days still take twice as long to load as Windows 3.1 did on a 386

 

[Planetcat]

A11 (10V/K294) is at the top of the food chain along with 15V, the only thing that beats it I believe is REX-121.

10V and K294 are amazing steels that will just keep on going for it seems forever.... Literally.

Do you think these steels will be the norm in the future, much like some of the "super" steels you mentioned previously that were developed in the late 90's/early 2K's are commonly used in production knives? It seems that once a steel can be made super sharp and maintain it's sharpness, breaking strength, tensile strength, etc. without significantly degrading under normal use (i.e. not chopping cinder blocks), then there would be no more need for better knife steels. Sort of like High Def photos and videos. Once they get to a resolution so fine that the naked eye can't tell the difference, there's no need to make it better.

 

[akadave2]

We reached that situation about 4years ago with computers, but that doesn't seem to have quelled the rush to go out and buy the latest octo-core 15 gHz motherboard with a Tb of ram in it. And the newer OS's these days still take twice as long to load as Windows 3.1 did on a 386

You got that right!

 

[Ankerson]

Yes, m4 has a higher attainable hardness than s30v, but has fewer carbides. Hardness isn't the only thing that impacts ease or difficulty of sharpening. There is a lot of variables that contribute to a steel's performance. The high carbide volume in S30V is what makes it hold its working edge for a very long time, perhaps longer than m4, but the high carbide volume also means it is highly wear resistant, meaning difficult to sharpen. M4 with take and hold a razor edge better than s30v due to its low carbide volume and high hardness, but the low carbide volume means it will not have as much bite after the razor edge has deteriorated. However, it's lower carbide count means m4 is not as difficult to sharpen as s30v,even at higher hardness ratings.

As for carrying a serrated knife...i do. I carry a fully serrated h1 dragonfly in addition to a larger plain edge blade every day. It does come in handy at times, but overall I just like the performance of a plain edge better. I like clean cuts, they are easier to control. Serrated edges, even very sharp ones, tend to shred material rather than cleanly cut it. I can't be having bits of plastic shredded off into the food I'm cooking.

In terms of sharpening equipment, I freehand. I've settled with dmt diasharp stones for the coarser grits and spyderco's ceramics for the finer grits. The dmt stones make easy work of reprofiling these modern super steels, and the spyderco ceramics do an excellent job of polishing and burnishing the edge. My progression is dmt coarse - > dmt fine - > spyderco medium - > spyderco fine - > spyderco ultrafine. I finish on my stropman hd compact strop loaded with white (aluminum oxide), and green (chromium oxide), compound.

CPM M4

Carbon 1.42%
Chromium 4.00%
Vanadium 4.00%
Tungsten 5.50%
Molybdenum 5.25%
Manganese 0.30% (0.70%)
Sulfur* 0.06% (0.22%)

CPM M4 has a lot higher alloy content than CPM S30V.

CPM S30V

Carbon 1.45%
Chromium 14.00%
Vanadium 4.00%
Molybdenum 2.00%

 

[The Mastiff]

According to the Crucible pdf : "Tool steels for the plastics industry" , the carbide fractions for these steels are:

CPM M4 ( rc 61-63) 12.5%
10V ( rc 58-62) 17.5%
9V (rc 52-56) 14.5%
15V (rc 62-64) 23%
S30V (rc 58-60) 14.5%
S90V (rc 58-60) 23%

No longer available on Crucible's website but still saved on my hard drive.

For those interested
S110V has 22% ( yes, less than S90V !)
S125V 28%
MPL-1/Supracore 45% ( have at it Kershaw/ZT

440C 12%
154cm 17.5%

 

[Ankerson]

Do you think these steels will be the norm in the future, much like some of the "super" steels you mentioned previously that were developed in the late 90's/early 2K's are commonly used in production knives? It seems that once a steel can be made super sharp and maintain it's sharpness, breaking strength, tensile strength, etc. without significantly degrading under normal use (i.e. not chopping cinder blocks), then there would be no more need for better knife steels. Sort of like High Def photos and videos. Once they get to a resolution so fine that the naked eye can't tell the difference, there's no need to make it better.

Couldn't really say as that will depend on the market as the steels mentioned aren't cheap cost wise and they all take more to make into knife blades than the simpler steels so only time will tell.

 

[Steel130]

Edit.

 

[mete]

http://www.bohler-edelstahl.com/files/M390DE.pdf
In this link take a look at the powder size photos of Generation 1&2 vs the Microclean ! Obvious improvement !
More work is being done with 'microalloying' .That is the addition of small amounts of specific alloying elements such as vanadium, niobium etc .
More work in details of HT, like exactly what happens during cryogenic cooling.
Better tools such as high power electron microscopes so we can see exactly what's happening !
These things may not be noticeble to the average person but to us metallurgists they are very significant.

 

[Ankerson]

http://www.bohler-edelstahl.com/files/M390DE.pdf
In this link take a look at the powder size photos of Generation 1&2 vs the Microclean ! Obvious improvement !
More work is being done with 'microalloying' .That is the addition of small amounts of specific alloying elements such as vanadium, niobium etc .
More work in details of HT, like exactly what happens during cryogenic cooling.
Better tools such as high power electron microscopes so we can see exactly what's happening !
These things may not be noticeble to the average person but to us metallurgists they are very significant.

I heard talk of a 4th generation PM being worked on awhile back.....

 

[The Mastiff]

In this link take a look at the powder size photos of Generation 1&2 vs the Microclean ! Obvious improvement !
More work is being done with 'microalloying' .That is the addition of small amounts of specific alloying elements such as vanadium, niobium etc .
More work in details of HT, like exactly what happens during cryogenic cooling.
Better tools such as high power electron microscopes so we can see exactly what's happening !
These things may not be noticeable to the average person but to us metallurgists they are very significant.

I've stated in other threads that I consider M390 and Elmax to be amazing steels for the edges they take, the ease of sharpening compared to other steels with such high levels of wear resistance, and the (so far complete) lack of inclusions, voids and other nasties that tend to mar the edges and are noticeable under magnification and feel when the grit gets to 8,000 grit on up when present on some other steels.

Steels like BG42 ( Vim Var), and even some of the hitachi whites and blues were and are clean, high quality ingot steels that were pretty amazing in their day. They still perform with the best but I'm feeling and getting results that are heads and shoulders above not only the really clean ingot steels like those noted above, but also some older CPM steels like S30V, CPM 154, and others from that generation.

It's completely non scientific and mainly something I feel on the steels when I am sharpening, and examining the edges afterward. The CTS steels I've tried have been limited to XHP, bd-1, 20cp, as well as heir version of S30V ( ?). I see very good performance from them but I don't have enough time or experience with them to make that kind of comparison.

I don't know what to say other than Elmax and M390 seem to perform at an extremely high level quality wise as far as clean, consistent , easy sharpening steel that takes a great edge unmarred by any inclusions, voids, etc. and is very easy getting it to do just what it should be doing.

I'm really impressed. The fact that I don't have much use for stainless steels should be taken into consideration. I'm looking forward to trying more PM steels from that foundry as they make their way into our circles.

Joe