Have you seen a ball bearing pivot fail?

[stabman]

I have 10 years of experience servicing bicycle headsets. Are you really proposing that your experience with one headset not being damaged makes you just as much of a subject matter expert on headsets races?

But have you experienced any failures in bearing equipped knives?
Knives, not bicycles, knives.

 

[RX-79G]

But have you experienced any failures in bearing equipped knives?
Knives, not bicycles, knives.

Nope. But Archie says he has. How many does it take to make it true?

I was weighing in on Purple's insistence that other, similarly low rpm bicycle bearings don't pit. They do.


If you don't like bicycle bearings being brought into the discussion, take it up with him.

 

[Fire_Brand]

I personally think this is getting way too heated especially considering the original question. That said I would like to see Archie's example, so far other than saying he's seen bearings score (probably meant scour) a handle there hasn't really been any evidence of bearings failing in a knife.

There very well may be potential for failure, but people are usually pretty vocal when they have problems with a knife and this applies ten fold for high end knives where you are more likely to find bearings.

 

[stabman]

If you don't like bicycle bearings being brought into the discussion, take it up with him.

To be fair, you did bring up the bicycle thing in other bearing threads, as I recall.

Since they are different types of items being put under different stresses, there will be limited transfer of applicability between the two.

Nope. But Archie says he has. How many does it take to make it true?

More than one.
Or else the statement that "Knives break when you cut carrots" would be a true statement.
Seeing as I did have an old paring knife snap in half while cutting (not chopping!) a carrot.
That one example does not establish a trend though.

 

[PURPLEDC]

I used the term "pitting", because that is the correct term when talking about manufactured bearing races. In this thread, Archie used the term "scoring" for permanent race damage, which is what I referenced.

You have proposed that soft races can dent without it being permanent, but are also insisting that the races become work hardened from use. Please pick one.


Now, what is it that you promise used to be on a website, but is now gone, that I am in charge of proving existed at one time?


I have 10 years of experience servicing bicycle headsets. Are you really proposing that your experience with one headset not being damaged makes you just as much of a subject matter expert on headsets races?



I think you have a very strange idea about how information is supposed to be valued and conveyed. I you want to demonstrate an idea, you post the reference to it. If you want to go on experience, why not acknowledge those with real experience?

Jesus man so much bs so little time. Remeber the part where i said many bearing knives DONT HAVE RACES? Many have a simple pocket. You may call it a race because it houses a bearing but it is not a cold rolled race formed by the bearings and supporting it. Many just ride on a flat surcace cut deeper into the metal to allow enough space for the bearing to fit without using 1" standoffs. Buts its not the same thing as cold working a race into that milled pocket. The dents are formed in that flat pocket. You can see the impressions the balls will leave behind. Now since that dent is left behind in the exact path of travel as the rest of the bearings those bearings will ride that patch. The rest of that track dents just like the initial dents but they do it as the bearings rotate. And wach time you tighten the pivot the bearings work slightly deeper. Eventually you are left with a very clean cold rolled race that either has evened out the rest of the track to be even with those initial dents or if those initial dents arent too deep you may actually go deeper than thise original dents. Either way that track compresses the metal beneath it in a uniform way and it is deeper than the initial pocket cut for those bearings. This isnt a matter of me having to choose one thing or another. Its a matter of you having to understand what i am describing.

Now, this crap about you 10 years servicing bicycles? I dont care. This is another case of twisting words. I never said i knew more about bicycles. I told you that in the last thread. I told you i used that example from my experience. My whole group of friends rode bmx for years and we werent going through headsets like you claim to have seen. And i simply said my experience was different from yours. And i went on further to say that while you may have had bearing failures in bicycles that it didnt mean that i did too. You seemto be the only one taking your single experience and quantifying it as fact. The problem is between me and you my experience is based in he subject at hand. I am only using examples outside of knives in an obvious failed attempt to overcome the language barrier we have due to your clinging of technicalities.

I also linked two more sources since you cant take your own advise and do a google search. Its funny you use that bs as the reason to not have to explain certain things to me but when the shoe is on the other foot all of a sudden your fingers are broken. Either way i never insisted that you go prove it was once there. I simply stated that you could do a search for the information via a different source. You are playing a game. And its one i play too. You take every single word te other person days literally with no exceptions. You do this with people you know lack the knowledge of certain terms and by using language only in a literal sense you won the debate on sheer technicalities. You know if you didnt take every single word literally you would no longer have the edge so you cling to it.


You simply arent playing by your own rules. I am supposed to google terms you use that i dont know. But when YOU dont know something i am supposed to serve it to you?

And the reason i dont acknowledge your "experience" is because your experience is not in this actual subject matter. And i have no idea if you are blwing smoke up everyones ass. Its easy to sit and say you have experience in every single subject you decide to get into an argument about. Problem is your experience NEVER has anything to do with knives so there is a low chance of anyone being able to call a bluff if you are doing so. " oh i have years of experience with bikes" Ok how do i know? As a guy who isnt into bikes anymore you could spout a page of nonesense and how would i know? My experience is of this actual subject, knives with bearings. And my personal experiences will ALWAYS mean more to me than some dudes opinion whos only basis is unconfirmed supposed experience in an unrelated field.

 

[RX-79G]

To be fair, you did bring up the bicycle thing in other bearing threads, as I recall.

Since they are different types of items being put under different stresses, there will be limited transfer of applicability between the two.

I agree. The primary problem is that everyone likes to bring up all sorts of pseudo science and poor examples to bolster their claims.

The only people that should be responding to this thread at all are folks with actual bearing issues. That's Archie and Blues Bender.


All I've tried to do is give the perspective of someone who drinks other kool-aide besides knife forums kool-aide.


To me, this is just like talking to Glock people about the "stronger than steel miracle material" called "polymer". The stuff everyone else calls nylon.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Nope. But Archie says he has. How many does it take to make it true?

I was weighing in on Purple's insistence that other, similarly low rpm bicycle bearings don't pit. They do.


If you don't like bicycle bearings being brought into the discussion, take it up with him.

There you go again puting words in my mouth. You really like to debate dirty dont you? At least i have the comfort of lnowing i am not making things up to tey and prove my point. I did not insist or even elude to what you are accusing me of. I stated with great clarity numerous times that i used the bicycle reference as an example of my own experiences. You are twisting that into me saying that it doesnt happen at all. I never said that and you know it. I said it did not happen to me. There is a difference and you know that. And archie didnt have a failure. He said it scored the metal. That is not a failure.

 

[stabman]

The only people that should be responding to this thread at all are folks with actual bearing issues.

Or people that have had no issues with their knives which have bearings.
The question was "Have you seen a ball bearing pivot fail?"
"No" is a valid answer.

There are only two answers to the question: yes, or no.

I answer no, since I haven't.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Or people that have had no issues with their knives which have bearings.
The question was "Have you seen a ball bearing pivot fail?"
"No" is a valid answer.

There are only two answers to the question: yes, or no.

I answer no, since I haven't.

Exactly.

I agree. The primary problem is that everyone likes to bring up all sorts of pseudo science and poor examples to bolster their claims.

Including yourself. The only person that knows if you are telling the truth is you. But you have offered nothing to prove anything besides i said so.

 

[RX-79G]

There you go again puting words in my mouth. You really like to debate dirty dont you? At least i have the comfort of lnowing i am not making things up to tey and prove my point. I did not insist or even elude to what you are accusing me of. I stated with great clarity numerous times that i used the bicycle reference as an example of my own experiences. You are twisting that into me saying that it doesnt happen at all. I never said that and you know it. I said it did not happen to me. There is a difference and you know that. And archie didnt have a failure. He said it scored the metal. That is not a failure.

You just said that your experience with bicycle headsets was just as valid as mine. That's absurd.

You also said that it was my job to find internet references to engineering concepts you insist are happening, even when they've apparently disappeared from the IKBS website.


Dirty? C'mon.

 

[RX-79G]

Including yourself. The only person that knows if you are telling the truth is you. But you have offered nothing to prove anything besides i said so.

About what? What have I posted that you'd like me to find references to? How races pit?

I answer no, since I haven't.

Most answers are going to be no. Most people haven't seen a plane crash either, but that doesn't mean they never do. The relative importance of "no" answers is pretty low.

 

[craytab]

The only people that should be responding to this thread at all are folks with actual bearing issues.

And this sums up your mentality perfectly. Why not take your ball and go home as well......

Oh shoot, sorry....I shouldn't have responded as I have had no issue with my bearing pivot knives....or bikes....or whatever else I have that has bearings.....there's got to be some in my car, right?

 

[RX-79G]

And this sums up your mentality perfectly. Why not take your ball and go home as well......

Oh shoot, sorry....I shouldn't have responded as I have had no issue with my bearing pivot knives....or bikes....or whatever else I have that has bearings.....there's got to be some in my car, right?

Huh? Does not compute with reality.

 

[craytab]

Huh? Does not compute with reality.

Of course not :thumbup:

 

[RX-79G]

Of course not :thumbup:

Stabman and I were having a chat about what is or isn't on topic for the thread. I contributed some stuff about how bearings work, but agreed with him that all the posts that aren't specific to the question are a little off topic.


What's your contribution?

 

[asdf12345]

In another thread, I posited that since I experienced gunked up bearings with KVT and other caged bearings from normal EDC use, then in an environment where even more debris were encountered (wood, sand, dirt) the bearings would be correspondingly more gunked up.

I was shot down because I did not personally have experience taking my bearing pivot knives into more dirty environments.

Is it fair to assume that if pocket lint & dust was causing a loss of smoothness, that wood, sand and dirt would likely cause an even greater loss of smoothness?

If it's not, just let me know why, but I think that common sense would say that more exposure to debris would cause smoothness issues worse than the issues already experienced with just dust and lint from the pocket.

 

[PURPLEDC]

You just said that your experience with bicycle headsets was just as valid as mine. That's absurd.

You also said that it was my job to find internet references to engineering concepts you insist are happening, even when they've apparently disappeared from the IKBS website.


Dirty? C'mon.

Are you really not getting this? Seriously? For the last time and read it slowly. Since my experience is my experience it doesnt mean it didnt happen because you had a different result occur in your experience. I stand by my claim that I have never had a bearing headset fail in my years of riding bmx nor my peers. YOU did. So because you did my experience cant be true? And all of a sudden you take my one single instance of personal experience and turn it into a blanket statement claiming I said that bearing headsets dont pit? I said that MINE DIDNT and I didnt even use a specific term I simply said mine didnt fail. If you dont know the difference between a single personal experience given as an example and a generalization I dont know why I am even bothering debating with you. When you take something I say and twist it and put words in my mouth then what is the "engineering" term non engineers use impress others to describe it? I only ask because that is the term I want to use so you dont get confused and twist my words further.

In another thread, I posited that since I experienced gunked up bearings with KVT and other caged bearings from normal EDC use, then in an environment where even more debris were encountered (wood, sand, dirt) the bearings would be correspondingly more gunked up.

I was shot down because I did not personally have experience taking my bearing pivot knives into more dirty environments.

Is it fair to assume that if pocket lint & dust was causing a loss of smoothness, that wood, sand and dirt would likely cause an even greater loss of smoothness?

If it's not, just let me know why, but I think that common sense would say that more exposure to debris would cause smoothness issues worse than the issues already experienced with just dust and lint from the pocket.

We arent talking about a reduction in performance we are talking about failures. Failure to open, failure to lock up, failed handle slabs from thinning the material, all due to a bearing pivot. You are talking about a reduction of performance due to the introduction of a debris not a failure. Washer knives will have reduced performance as well from all that you describe. But that ISNT what is being discussed.

 

[NeilB]

I'm not trying to start anything, but titanium, the usual material for a bearing pivot knife scale (at least on the lock side) is generally immune to pitting corrosion. I'm not aware of any other way of getting pitting. Could someone enlighten me without scorching the screen?

 

[The Aflac Duck]

How about we just agree that fixed blades are superior for all things? Then I can put this popcorn away...

 

[Fire_Brand]

A little more than pocket lint...

[video]https://youtu.be/8ptNsbpBnig[/video]