Having trouble with forming a burr.

[Allan Molstad]

when i use my 4k/8k norton waterstone i never get a detectable bur

Yes, this is in agreement with the link I posted where the guy put to the test the different ways to sharpen.

japanese water stones worked the best.
Now there still was a bur when he finished sharpening with the water stone, (There was with every system tested) but the burr was very small,,,very very very small,,(go see the photos.)
Remember, this is after he had finished all sharpening with the water stone that the last little bur was seen, well too small to be felt with the fingers.
(No matter what , there will always be some bur left from sharpening)

The guy also was then able to to use a leather strop to fold this little waterstone burr over the edge of the knife one way, and then flaten it back against this other side, completely getting rid of any burr hanging off the edge of the knife!

If I had a water stone and a strop,,,I would be showing off this trick all over YouTube!

 

[Dog of War]

I believe an argument in favor of trying to minimize burr formation as much as possible may be that the plastic deformation which occurs with burring is also weakening adjacent, underlying steel. If you think about a burr being bent over, it's easy to envision the steel to which it's attached being damaged by the burr pulling on it. I imagine as a general rule it's also the case that the greater the burr -- whether due to properties of the steel, or pressure used when sharpening -- the more extensive the damage may be to adjacent or underlying steel.

 

[sputnick]

Again i think the issue here is semantics. an edge with a final width of 0.26 microns (as listed in table 6 of verhoevens report) is the same size as a virion of cowpox. I'm not sure that has anything to do with the kind of roll over bur that this thread is about.

 

[Dog of War]

Again i think the issue here is semantics. an edge with a final width of 0.26 microns (as listed in table 6 of verhoevens report) is the same size as a virion of cowpox. I'm not sure that has anything to do with the kind of roll over bur that this thread is about.

"virion of cowpox" ... rofl! I'm not going to ask how you happen to know the size of one of those, sputnick. (BTW is that length or width?)

Interesting discussion, and thanks for the link to Verhoeven's paper.

 

[sputnick]

Hah, good question dog of war. Since vaccinia are spheroidal I split the difference. Poxvirus vaccinia are about .2µm x .3µm.

Edit: This happens to be a larger virus, but I think you get the point. A "bur", as we call it, isnt really a bur when its this size.

 

[Dog of War]

Sputnick, I'm hoping your knowledge of all this has to do with your profession, and it's not some kind of hobby.

 

[marvinstarving]

Well, since everybody seems to be in agreement , tried some experimenting. Took the same Sword and Shield knife and just worked up a burr completely on the first side. No counting

When sharpening a knife, there is no point in counting strokes.

so it took about 400 strokes on the first side. The DMT is only a 6 incher that

might account for all the strokes. After the burr formed over to the other side. It took a little over 100 strokes to develop a burr. After that it took about 20 strokes to develop a burr. When I checked the blade it did not show any big difference in blade center that I can tell. It also shaved better than yesterday.
Next the same thing on the case butcher knife. I started with the DMT It was taking to long. Then switched to a coarse vintage Schrade stone. Got it to burr in about 50 strokes. Kept going because it has a big bad spot in the belly of the blade, 150 strokes. The other side burred in about 50 strokes. Then I remembered

Marvin you don’t need to fix your edges all at oncer.

the advice not to try to fix every thing at once. After the burr on both side switched to the DMT. It would burr in about 30 strokes after that. Then in about 10 or so. This blade also did not appear to be off center. Hope to try the Henkles tomorrow.
My conclusion is that the method I was using with the Lansky was wrong. Or somehow it just does not allow the knife to burr on the first side.
Hey by the way did someone miss name this:jerkit: Shouldn't it be stroke it. You never should jerk a knife when you are trying to sharpen it, right?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

From what I have read Alvin's 1095 at the hardness you mentioned is really great stuff, maybe one day I'll get my hands on it.

I'll send you the small paring knife.

I am pretty sure he was referring to the Ben Dale of edge pro ...

Yes, in the paper that comes with the edge pro he notes that IDEAL sharpening doesn't create a burr because a burr is just weakened metal that has to be removed. Again, this is not a complex issue. A burr is just a tool used by novices to insure the edge is fully formed and OVERSHARPENED. With more experience you will learn to stop before this happens.

If you don't develop a detectable burr, isn't it easier to leave a sharp tiny burr on the edge?

No, optimal sharpening methods don't induce burr formation.

If you think about a burr being bent over, it's easy to envision the steel to which it's attached being damaged by the burr pulling on it. I imagine as a general rule it's also the case that the greater the burr -- whether due to properties of the steel, or pressure used when sharpening -- the more extensive the damage may be to adjacent or underlying steel.

Yes, that was ignored for a long time until you noted it awhile back.

... an edge with a final width of 0.26 microns (as listed in table 6 of verhoevens report) is the same size as a virion of cowpox. I'm not sure that has anything to do with the kind of roll over bur that this thread is about.

Eactly, using his work to argue for burr sharpening when his defination is not the same is severely inappropiate use of his research.

-Cliff

 

[Stubai]

Burrs are here to stay.

 

[Allan Molstad]

I didn't origionate that perspective, I read it from Ben Dale. Since you continue to ignore facts and logic and want blind faith in names then this discussion isn't productive.

-Cliff

So kids I went and did a little looking on my own for the website of Mr. Ben Dale...

http://www.edgeproinc.com/Instructions.htm

May I quote Mr Dale?

"■ BRING THE EDGE TO A BURR. Continue making equal passes down each side of the blade. When the two sharpening cuts come together at the edge, the metal breaks down and forms a BURR, which can be felt by drawing your thumb across and away from the edge on the opposite side of the last pass. As the blade moves across the Blade Table, you want it to remain parallel to the end of the Blade Table.
■ CHECK THE EDGE FOR A BURR each time you switch sides. The BURR will begin to form in some areas & not in others. Concentrate in areas with no BURR and lightly pass over the areas that have a BURR. When you have an even BURR down each side of the edge, switch to your finish stone.
■ MAKE A FEW PASSES with your finish stone. The BURR will become much finer.
■ REMOVE THE BURR. Wipe the stone and knife clean of the stone grit. Make one or two passes down each side of the blade with NO PRESSURE on the Stone, just the wight of the Stone Arm. DO NOT HIT THE STOP> Only make one light stroke in each area of the blade. Check to see that the BURR is gone. If you use too much pressure or make too many stone strokes, you will keep making a new BURR. Note: If you go to the 600 and then the Polish Tape, There will be no BURR"


Well my Cliff my friend...it seems that Mr Dale likes the BURR just fine....Lucky too,being that he based his whole sharepening system on it!


---------------------------
In Other news...
Now what I think might be called "Bur-less" sharpening, is actually talked about on another website that I have been reading where the sharpener actually makes a bur ( oh by the way ALL sharpening systems will form a bur) but you stop stroking the knife into the stone just before the moment the burr flops over to the side and is felt.

Stopping early like this means is that you have made what is called the "wire edge" on your knife.

Now it is very true, the "wire edge" can be "ULTIMATE" in sharpness.
However it's just not able to last very long.
What happens is that a guy will sharpen an edge as normal and yet stop just before the burr is felt.
Then he feels the sharpened edge and thinks he has a monster-sharp edge....way sharper than any other edge he has had!

The problem about doing this that I have been reading about with "Bur-less" wire edge sharpening is that with any use of the blade at all and the unsupported wire edge (thats actually just a very sharp burr that is sticking out straight) will flop over to one side and cause the blade to seem dull again.
(Author, Joe Talmadge has a website about this error at - http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/sharpen/instruct3.html)

The person useing the wire-edge point will be stunned at how fast his knife went dull.

 

[Allan Molstad]

After the burr formed over to the other side. It took a little over 100 strokes to develop a burr. After that it took about 20 strokes to develop a burr.

Just to make sure...Marvvinstarving you are getting rid of the burr before you finish sharpening and try to use the blade to cut stuff right?
We always have to get rid of the burr before we are done.

 

[Dog of War]

Well, since everybody seems to be in agreement , tried some experimenting. Took the same Sword and Shield knife and just worked up a burr completely on the first side....

Next the same thing on the case butcher knife. I started with the DMT It was taking to long. Then switched to a coarse vintage Schrade stone. Got it to burr in about 50 strokes. Kept going because it has a big bad spot in the belly of the blade, 150 strokes. The other side burred in about 50 strokes....

My conclusion is that the method I was using with the Lansky was wrong. Or somehow it just does not allow the knife to burr on the first side.

Glad to hear things are working better now. But let me suggest another possible explanation based on something you said earlier:

Most of the knives I am sharpening are vintage carbon steel

Two things could be going on here that were causing you problems, the first being steel fatigue from years of use, particularly if these knives were steeled by their previous owners. The second problem could be rust and corrosion, which can degrade the structure and integrity of steel deeper than what can be seen with the naked eye ... and more so I would guess if the steel has been fatigued.

So if my guess is right, IMO this actually illustrates a situation where your being persistent until you got the edges to form a burr was beneficial: the burr is your indicator that you've finally taken the edge down to where you've got good steel now.

If you think about a burr being bent over, it's easy to envision the steel to which it's attached being damaged by the burr pulling on it. I imagine as a general rule it's also the case that the greater the burr -- whether due to properties of the steel, or pressure used when sharpening -- the more extensive the damage may be to adjacent or underlying steel.

Yes, that was ignored for a long time until you noted it awhile back.

Thanks for the credit there, Cliff, though I'm pretty sure the idea isn't original to me, I'm just not that insightful. If I didn't read directly it somewhere, it was probably while I was studying Brandt's book and had a case of "plastic deformation on the brain" or something.

.

 

[Nosmo]

Well my Cliff my friend...it seems that Mr Dale likes the BURR just fine....Lucky too,being that he based his whole sharepening system on it!

Ben Dale goes on to say

QUOTE : " THE ULTIMATE EDGE " .This edge is very strong, very smooth and takes less metal off the knife each time you sharpen, but it takes practice.

To create this edge, you stop sharpening just before the BURR begins to appear, and the edge is finished.

The knife needs to be sharpened a few times on the Edge Pro so you have a consistent angle.

Go slowly, and lighten your sharpening pressure as the STONE gets close to creating a BURR. With practice, you will know, " If I make one more pass, I am going to start a BURR." Just stop here, and you have the ULTIMATE EDGE. It does take a fair amount of practice and attention to detail, but its worth the effort.

To finish, lightly ceramic the edge..........End Quote from Ben Dale.

 

[gunmike1]

I'll send you the small paring knife.

-Cliff

Drool, drool!

No, optimal sharpening methods don't induce burr formation.

-Cliff

My meager skills agree with you here, as when I get the edge to form cleanly and I don't have to significantly de-burr my results have been consistently better in terms of both sharpness and edge retention. When I have to waste time significantly raising the angle to remove a stubborn burr I just can't get that last bit of sharpness I can get when I form a clean edge from the start. The Jeff Clarks of the world can easily overcome this and get famously sharp edges, I'm just not that skilled, and a lot of times just cut straight into the stone and start over. A very minor burr that goes away with a couple more degrees isn't that big of a deal, but by raising a large, uniform burr it plays hell with me to get rid of it without undoing a lot of my previous work. Stropping the burr off, as you have shown in detail well before I thought about it and as I have seen for myself under magnification, just leaves the edge jagged for me as it tears the burr off. Maybe I just suck at de-burring, but I think it has more to do with the fact than not raising a burr in the first place is far more efficient. Dog of War's point about the burr weakening the steel around it also rings very true in my head. Continually flip flopping a burr when you try to remove it can't be good for the steel it is attached to, but to what extent it damages the surrounding steel who knows, but at minimum it won't help the cause and can only damage the steel around it. Hence my reluctance to play with burrs at all if possible.

Mike

 

[marvinstarving]

Just to make sure...Marvvinstarving you are getting rid of the burr before you finish sharpening and try to use the blade to cut stuff right?
We always have to get rid of the burr before we are done.

Hey Allen,
This was more of a personal experiment, not a finished product. Had to check out making the burr to number of strokes ECT. When I got back home The Sword and Shield got a stropping on 1500 wet and dry sandpaper. After that it got stopped on a leather belt. Now it is done enough for me. It is very, very sharp. Maybe not quite scary sharp, but if not, very close.
The three knives that I could not get a burr and the blades were sharpened way off center were in very good condition. There was no visible rust and no sign there had been any.
I do not think it was the knives that were the problem. I think it was the Lansky sharpener. For some reason unknown to me, going by their instructions and using the coarse stone did not cause the blade to burr on the first side. After I had sharpened too far and made the chisel edge flipping the knife made a burr very quickly. I would not have sharpened them to a chisel edge and so far off center, except I kept waiting for a burr.
That was part of the reason for the experiment. To make sure I could get a burr with out off centering the edge by free handing.

 

[Allan Molstad]

Ben Dale goes on to say

.

I believe I have addressed this 'effect" of putting the wire edge "burr" straight down on a knife edge.

As we read in the 2nd link I posted http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/sharpen/instruct3.html the temptation to stop sharpening too early before the burr has flopped over the edge will make it seem to the person that they have a great edge.

But as we learn from the 2nd link, this wire edge is unable to stay in position long at all.
This is why I believe that people that attempt to sharpen the "no-burr" way always suggest to use a "Sharpening steel" or to adjust the edge with more strokes on the stone all the time.
This is because the tendency of the wire edge top want to flop over under even slight force.

Clearly the "no-burr" system, (if you can call it a system) leads to dull edges and is an error in sharpening.

 

[Allan Molstad]

marvin,
I could never get that darn Lansky sharpener to work for me ...
I know the company swears that the thing works and will make a burr appear on a knife the way they say it should..

But I could not get to to work for me..

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Quoting Dale ...

To create this edge, you stop sharpening just before the BURR begins to appear, and the edge is finished.

Yes, this is obviously problematic for a novice obviously which is where the burr is used.

Hence my reluctance to play with burrs at all if possible.

Unfortunately this is all just a case of improper hardening. With correctly hardened steels, chosen for the intended purpose of the knife (now isn't that a shocking idea) there is no burr formation.

I do not think it was the knives that were the problem. I think it was the Lansky sharpener.

I have used similar gadgets, they are not intrinsically at fault. Lots of people use them with the standard instructions with no issues. Talmadge has been advocating the one-side-burr method for like a dozen years and I don't think he origionated it. The method is solid for novices.

-Cliff

 

[QuietOned]

I've used the Lansky and it's like, Gatco etc. I've used stones, oil, water, papers, the Edge Pro models.

I've discussed sharpening with Ben Dale, I've visited his shop and seen what he can do and gotten first hand tips in action.

Taking the no burr approach with the Edge Pro or free hand does take some work, learning, and attention. The marker is "one" way to help in this.

Take your knife and make a couple of passes directly square into the blade. First step make it dull and flat.

Then make a pass with a stone at your starting angle the full length of the blade on each side. Then fill the whole bevel in, then flip the knife upside down and run the marker the full length of the blade. The edge and bevels will be fully coloured. Start sharpening.

Sharpen with the first stone, coarse or medium or your choice. Sharpen until you have gone through the colouring until there is just a 1mm slice of colour on the bevel. Measure it if you don't trust your eye sight. As you aren't touching the edge you can go very quickly. You're NOT grinding through the edge just getting close.

When you have the 1mm or so band of colour even on both sides. Switch to your medium fine stone. Now sharpen until half the band that was there with the first stone is gone. Again you're not hitting the edge you're stopping just before it. You're not grinding through the edge just to it so again it goes fairly quickly.

LOOK at your edge. The edge will still be solid coloured. Get out your magnifier and get up close and personal with the edge, the bevels and the grind lines. See where you are removing metal and where you are not. Make the colour line even. Use calipers to measure if you have to.

Before your last stone there should be just a bare hint of colour on the bevel, use the marker again if you have to. Make a full pass and see how even the removal is. Got just a thin hint of line colour on the bevel but the edge is still solid colour? You're almost home.

When you get to your LAST stone. The bare line of colour and the edge still solid colour. Now crank up the angle a bit. 2 -5 degrees. Make as smooth a strokes as you can down each side alternating sides. On the first pass all colour on the bevel should disappear. In a very few strokes you'll see the edge colour disappearing here and there. Slow, long, smooth, light strokes.

Check at every stroke. Feel the edge, look at it with your magnifier. No colour on the edge you're done! No burr either.

It will get to where you can feel/hear that "one more stroke I'll have a burr" it does sound different on the stone as it gets close and totally different when the stone cuts "through" the edge. That you want to avoid.

It will be sharper and it will last a LOT longer. I'm sure there is still a minute burr. It's just can't be felt or seen at 20X. By me at least.

Forming a burr is ONE way to feel and see that you've gone through the edge, but it's not what you really want. You want to sharpen the edge.

The biggest help I have had is the initial few cuts directly into the stone. Makes a world of difference in how sharp I can get.

Of course this isn't a "touch-up" but resharpening. My opinion only and your mileage may vary.

 

[Allan Molstad]

and.....that brings up another topic....
There is a tendancy of some people to use their "expert knowledge" on a topic to push an idea or something that has no business being talked about with someone who is new.

I see this all the time on the Bladesmithing questions forums, were a new guy posts his very first post about learning to make his first knife.

Rather than helping the kid by listing a few very easy ways to go about making their first blade, some "Experts" will jump in to the conversation and start to talk about "$1200 salt pots' and "ramping up heat" and "soak times' and BurrKing grinders and sending away for Damascus steels. it's all money-money-money$$$....

I read such posts and just shake my head...
Do they really think such "advice" is helping the kid at all?

Im lucky I ran into guys who understood how easy it would have been to harm an eager new member of the forum with such bad advice.
They remembered to "Keep it simple"
Thats how you help a guy get interested in anything.