Having trouble with forming a burr.

[sputnick]

Clearly the "no-burr" system, (if you can call it a system) leads to dull edges and is an error in sharpening.

This is a logical fallacy. I simply can't follow the reasoning behind that conclusion.

If two identical pieces of steel are sharpened using these two methods and they both end with an equivalent edge width and finish they will be identically "sharp". However, the edge that was not fatigued from flip-flopping the steel at the edge will more closely retain the characteristics of the virgin steel.

and no, I would call it an approach, not a system. The burr approach is one that simplifies sharpening for novices, or those using power tools that allows them to pay less attention to the process and still achieve an acceptable outcome.

Forming a burr is ONE way to feel and see that you've gone through the edge, but it's not what you really want. You want to sharpen the edge.

Yup...Its good advice for someone who is having trouble getting a sharp knife but its not the goal.

 

[db]

As I believe it’s most likely you didn’t feel a burr because the knife was very dull and rounded, post 6. It could also be possible that the Lansky clamp wasn’t on strait giving you a different angle on each side. Example 15 degrees on one side and 19 on the other. Just another thing to check since we all seem to agree on the burr thing.

 

[Nosmo]

I believe I have addressed this 'effect" of putting the wire edge "burr" straight down on a knife edge.

As we read in the 2nd link I posted http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/sharpen/instruct3.html the temptation to stop sharpening too early before the burr has flopped over the edge will make it seem to the person that they have a great edge.

But as we learn from the 2nd link, this wire edge is unable to stay in position long at all.
This is why I believe that people that attempt to sharpen the "no-burr" way always suggest to use a "Sharpening steel" or to adjust the edge with more strokes on the stone all the time.
This is because the tendency of the wire edge top want to flop over under even slight force.

Clearly the "no-burr" system, (if you can call it a system) leads to dull edges and is an error in sharpening.

Ben Dale's 'Ultimate Edge' has nothing to do with burr, wire edge, or rolling the burr over . Its all about bringing the two sides together without forming a burr, rolled edge, wire edge etc and just stopping sharpening at the exact point that the next stroke would form a 'burr'.

Anyway .....that's how it was explained to me.

 

[Broos]

Get a loupe and you can see for yourself pretty easily whether you are indeed "sharpening the edge". Look a few times while sharpening, and you can tell just when you do get to the edge. Before I got one I thought I was sharpening the edge more often than I was.

 

[hardheart]

so people seem to either

cut directly into the stone to remove the edge before honing, or

leave the metal there and eventually break it off as a burr at the end

?

 

[Allan Molstad]

Ben Dale's 'Ultimate Edge' has nothing to do with burr, wire edge, or rolling the burr over . Its all about bringing the two sides together without forming a burr, rolled edge, wire edge etc and just stopping sharpening at the exact point that the next stroke would form a 'burr'.

Anyway .....that's how it was explained to me.

What I have seen in website after website, is that the moment you start to sharpen with a stone you are also making a burr form,,,the two things start to happen at the very same time.

In the one website that I posted a link to, it talks about people like Mr Dale who think they have been able to stop sharpering before a burr formed, feel the edge, and think that have done a great job!
But the truth is that the moment they had started to sharpen the knife the burr was already forming out infront of the point of the knife.
When the person stops sharpening before the burr folds over, (before they think it has formed at all because they cant feel it yet) the burr is actually sticking straight out off the end of the edge.

Yes, It's very sharp!
The reason it's very sharp is that its just made like wire thin metal that is going to pop free off the edge when an attempt to cutr is made.
It will also flop over easy, and thats also why people who try the "No-Burr" system also have to add that you need to use a "steel" to true of the edge.
Thats because they are attempting to maintain the floppy burr hanging off the end of the edge.

This is all talked about in the site I linked to...

There are also many other websites where they also warn about stopping the sharpening action before a burr is felt on the "up" side...
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Now lets put this all into a context of giving advice about sharpening
.
Every person who should know, has confermed the same sharpening system as I have talked about here all along...
There is not a hint of disagreement from anyone about what I havbe said about the use of the Burr.

Yes, even Mr Ben Dale goes on-and-on talking about how very important getting a good burr is...

So after all this, I believe that the ONLY advice given to anyone about how to sharpen a knife, should be to go for the burr first, get it, and then get rid of it.

This is how a guy should be taught to sharpen a knife...case-closed.

There is no need to even bring up other ideas, that even the person of Mr Dale admits are not for every knife nor for every person to try to use.

 

[gunmike1]

Ben Dale sharpened a knife for me, and let me tell you there was no burr visible under 100X magnification, and even though the edge was very polished it lasted a long time, not to mention being VERY sharp, as in push cutting newspring well over 4" from the point of hold. You are really fooling yourself if you think Ben Dale is forming wire edges with his "no burr" method. He did not steel the edge at all, he just stopped at the polishing tape. He recommends a ceramic "steel" IIRC, which is actually a hone, used for touch ups so that you don't have to spend a lot of set up time for simple touch ups of your edge. I'm no expert on the Edge Pro, just giving you my rememberances from talking to Ben and having him do a complimentary sharpening, which included details of how he sharpened the knife.

Many people, including myself, first started getting shaving sharp edges and beyond on the sharpmaker system, following Sal Glesser's instructions, which don't include forming a burr. Granted, I formed them from bad technique (too much pressure, ect.), but as I learned more about removing them, and then just plain not raising them, I got better and better results. I actually started using benchstones due to their greater surface area leading to less burring than the sharpmaker rods. I don't see how you can argue that by cutting into the stone and honing until it's sharp is giving me a wire edge (you seem to have no question about that), when under 100X a wire edge isn't visible and the edge lasts a very long time.

Mike

 

[Allan Molstad]

Ben Dale sharpened a knife for me, and let me tell you there was no burr visible under 100X magnification, .

You do understand that before you hand back a knife to someone that there should be no burr left on it correct?

As Mr Dale points out on his website, the use of the burr is only the first step of many others that a knife sharpener does before he can say that the blade is finished and can be used.

I expect that when Mr Dale hands back a knife that he has sharpened, it better not have any burr left on it's edge!...LOL
The same goes for any of us that think they have a sharp edge.
because if you have any burr left on the edge then you will soon fine that the knife goes dull very easy.

I fully agree with this view of Dale's , as it is what I have said all along from day one.

 

[Allan Molstad]

I don't see how you can argue that by cutting into the stone and honing until it's sharp is giving me a wire edge (you seem to have no question about that), when under 100X a wire edge isn't visible and the edge lasts a very long time.

Mike

Me?
Im not argueing anything, Im only showing what experts in the field tell all of us about this toipic.
Personally I dont really care one way or the other.

here,http://mse.iastate.edu/fileadmin/www.mse.iastate.edu/static/files/verhoeven/KnifeShExps.pdf this is where I get the idea that all sharpening will form a burr.
As you can see from the photos found on that link, even very fine quality Japanese waterstone forms a burr.
You cant get around it.

I have also pointed out that true experts in the field of knife sharpening advice against stopping before you form a burr.
The most well respected person I know of in the field of knife sharpening is JOHN A. JURANITCH , (if there is anyone more respected in this area I dont know about it),
When I read his advice about this topic I got to respect it.http://users.ameritech.net/knives/Juranitch1977Feb.htm

I cant turn around and go against what I see clearly is the advice of everyone in the field, (And when I say "everyone" I mean EVERYONE!)
just because I think saw one guy do it a different way one time...Or just because I think up my own system.

Advice shared on this topic has to have merit...all mine does.

Now, do you always have to get a burr in every case?
no, that would be crazy.

You need to get a burr when your knife is dull. When it's been used a lot, when it's nicked, when it has some flaw in the edge that needs to be worked out.
Thats when you simply have to go get the burr first.
There is no way around it...

However, you dont need to get a burr for a quick true-up of the edge.
When Im in the field with a knife, or at work and Im busy cutting stuff with my knife, I dont stop to grind in a new burr every time I think my blade is just starting to slow down.
Thats would be crazy.

I often stroke my blade into my pocket diamond stone when out deer hunting after its had a few deer under it's belt just to true up the edge.

But as far as I know, EVERY expert in the field of sharpening a knife tells us the very same message, that you must get a burr on a dull knife or you simply will not get the knife as sharp as it could be.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I don't see how you can argue that by cutting into the stone and honing until it's sharp is giving me a wire edge (you seem to have no question about that), when under 100X a wire edge isn't visible and the edge lasts a very long time.

Theory can not disprove experiment. Anyone who argues thusly has completely misinderstood the scientific process fundamentally, not to mention has on understanding of formal logic. I check the edges of my knives after sharpening under magnification and MEASURE the sharpness and edge retention. It isn't some informal and vague opinion but measured FACT. The behavior is as you noted for the non-burr edges. This is ideal of course. Some steels have a low tolerance for less than ideal methods. I will get a burr on AUS-4 for example very easily unless my methods are near perfect, but I can be very sloppy on 1095 at 66 HRC and no burr will form.

-Cliff

 

[marvinstarving]

As I believe it’s most likely you didn’t feel a burr because the knife was very dull and rounded, post 6. It could also be possible that the Lansky clamp wasn’t on strait giving you a different angle on each side. Example 15 degrees on one side and 19 on the other. Just another thing to check since we all seem to agree on the burr thing.

This happened with three knives. One was actually fairly sharp and a top quality knife. The other two were not very sharp. It is just the first side that did not burr, so angle difference should not have been a factor.

Bross suggested a loupe. I already have one. First thing I need to know what I am supposed to be looking for. Second I need the knife to hold still.

Looks like there will be those who burr and those that don’t burr. Not sure which I’ll be.


I am having a lot of fun trying new things. My techniques may be lacking a lot, but I now have the absolute sharpest knives I have ever owned or handled.


Thanks to all you guys on this forum who have helped me. I am proof that you can teach old dog new tricks.

 

[rprocter]

to QuietOned: i have an edgepro and am going to try your method, which you described so clearly in your post. i believe it is a refinement i am now ready for. thank you. roland

 

[Matthew Gregory]

Theory can not disprove experiment. Anyone who argues thusly has completely misinderstood the scientific process fundamentally, not to mention has no understanding of formal logic.

-Cliff

It's very rare that I feel compelled to comment on your observations, Mr. Stamp, however this is certainly worthy of note. Without question, this is one of the wisest statements I've read from you, and oh! so poignant... however, it will no doubt be lost in the maze of pretzel logic exhibited in this thread.

 

[gunmike1]

Theory can not disprove experiment. Anyone who argues thusly has completely misinderstood the scientific process fundamentally, not to mention has on understanding of formal logic. I check the edges of my knives after sharpening under magnification and MEASURE the sharpness and edge retention. It isn't some informal and vague opinion but measured FACT. The behavior is as you noted for the non-burr edges. This is ideal of course. Some steels have a low tolerance for less than ideal methods. I will get a burr on AUS-4 for example very easily unless my methods are near perfect, but I can be very sloppy on 1095 at 66 HRC and no burr will form.

-Cliff

Thank you for putting into words what I was having trouble saying. No matter how many Juratich links a person posts, it doesn't change the fact that you and many others have gotten our best results trying NOT to raise a burr. Didn't you get that AUS 4 blade to cut dozens of meters of cardboard and still be able to slice newsprint at the end of the cutting, along with impressive push cutting performance before the cutting started? It would at the minimum be ignorant to argue you can't get very sharp, durable, non-wire edges with the "no burr" method after seeing results like that. Like you said, theory can not disprove experiment, no matter whose theory it is.

Mike

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Didn't you get that AUS 4 blade to cut dozens of meters of cardboard and still be able to slice newsprint at the end of the cutting, along with impressive push cutting performance before the cutting started? It would at the minimum be ignorant to argue you can't get very sharp, durable, non-wire edges with the "no burr" method after seeing results like that.

Yes, and yes. Once experiment contradicts theory (and is confirmed) you rewrite the theory, you don't rewrite the experiment. That AUS blade showed me a lot, including a re-evaluation of just how important initial edge quality is to edge retention, especially in the early stage where you are concerned with retaining that ultra-sharp shaving edge. I wish people would heat treat it properly though, so many steels out there have crappy labels because of improper heat treatments and poor choices with the knives they are used in.

-Cliff

 

[EdgeOn]

Personally, I think turning a burr really helps keep track of the process. You can tell how light a stroke turns the burr and you can tell how consistent the burr is along the edge just by feeling. Turning the burr doesn't have anything to do with sharpening, of course, but it sure is a handy way of knowing how you're doing and at what point you need to go on to the next sharpening stage. It takes all the guesswork out of sharpening. I've been turning burrs for a long, long time and have no intention of quitting.

 

[Stubai]

Like I said, the burr is here to stay.

 

[postoak]

So, if a burr can never be formed, and the knife never gets sharp, it's bad steel? Just toss the knife in a drawer and forget it?

 

[HeavyHanded]

Holy zombie thread, where did this come from?!

 

[postoak]

It comes up when you google "can't form burr".

But, all I got out of it was that some knives won't form a burr. My knife is hand-made from salvaged L6 steel, I think.