HEADS UP : Buyer from Thailand

under the UCC, once the check clears the Federal Reserve System and the bank releases the funds into your account as "available funds," the bank's recourse against you becomes virtually unenforceable after 14 business days.

As a clarification to bppump's info: While the funds may be released as 'available' after a certain waiting period, and even if the check clears the issuing bank, a bank is required to allow a depositor 60 days from the receipt of their monthly statement to dispute an item. Example: Suspect A steals a checkbook from Victim A in California, and Suspect writes you a check for some knives. You deposit the check, wait the prescribed period for your bank to release the hold, and send the knives off. Victim gets his bank statement, lets it sit for a few weeks, opens it and sees a check for $1000 that he never wrote, contacts his bank, and his bank sends your bank notice that the check is fraudulent, and requests a 'chargeback'. Your bank debits your account (if there is not enough money, they put you into the negative if necessary), and sends funds to the other bank, which credits their customer for the fraudulently written check. At this point it is between YOU and YOUR bank. You are out the money, and your knives. In my 12 years of bank management, this is how it has been. Now, if UCC codes come into play and it goes as far as legal action between the bank and the depositor, then that's just the way it is, but I have never had a depositor take it that far. It's a very gray area where usually it's the person that sold the knives and took the personal, out of town check that gets burned. In the above scenario, the check could be written on June 1, the statement could be received by the Victim on July 2, and they have 60 days from that point to dispute. That adds up to potentially 90 days from the time the check is written to the time the dispute is initiated.

What's more, I had an instance once where we knocked a client into the negative 5 months after the fact ( I just went to the file cabinet and checked to verify that timeframe). It was a fraud issue where the client got taken by a con-artist, along with about 100 other people and spanning 3 or 4 banks in my small town. Whenever possible, banks ALWAYS pass the loss on to the the depositor of the fraudulent/stolen/whatever check. It's a shoot first ask questions later type policy, where if they have to reverse it later they will, but this is very rare. If it gets to a legal standoff, then it does, but it's highly unlikely.

You, when you open an account and sign a signature card, basically take responsibility for everything that comes in and out of that account. Bottom line - don't take a personal check from someone you don't know, if the amount of the check is larger than you're willing to lose.
 
Hi Gramps.

I'm from Thailand and buy serveral knives from many big name members in BF. and never have problem, what ever pay by Bank Draft, Western Union Money Transfer, or PayPal.

Could you please specify name of that Thai' Member, otherwise the other members from Thailand will get in to dificulty for next business.

Thanks.
.......I don't think ANY member on this board, after reading my posts, would conclude that doing business with everyone from Thailand is risky. This is more a discussion about the payment process than about an individual. This is also a case of "all's well that ends well" , as the information I have received about the individual reveals there is no reason to question his character. Fundamentally. no wrong has been committed, and therefore there is no need to disclose a name.

I believe the members here are smart enough and discriminating enough to not
assume doing business with a Thai poses any greater risk than doing business with someone from, say, Mexico. On Blade Forums, we tend to think every member "in good standing" to be honorable ...........regardless of their nationality !

- Best
 
As a clarification to bppump's info: ..................

cstorr2004, your post above is full of valuable information for all consumers, thank you !!. This is information I intend to share with my grandchildren. I know it will help them make more informed decisions as they begin to enter the business world.

- My best regards !
 
cstorr2004, your post above is full of valuable information for all consumers, thank you !!. This is information I intend to share with my grandchildren. I know it will help them make more informed decisions as they begin to enter the business world.

- My best regards !


You're welcome. I'm still learning every day too! It's worthwhile to note, too, that bppump's info may also be right on, as he mentions that a bank's recourse may be 'virtually unenforceable' after a certain period. That's where the gray area between the real world and the legal world come into play. If I wanted to fight the bank to get my money, based on a code or anything else, I guess I could - but it'll probably cost me more than the money I'm out. If it's a large dollar item, maybe it's still worth pursuing. As mentioned though, don't know what the outcome would be as I've never seen anyone try. It isn't ouside the realm of possibility though.
 
I agree that a depositor can dispute the check and recover his funds from his bank, as you say. But the liability issue then must be resolved between the banks after the 14 day period. The bank has an obligation under the UCC to verify the check and the signature.

I certainly don't want to get into an argument between a lawyer and a banker, and I don't mean to contradict anything you have said. I think we are looking at it from two different points of view. But as I said, I agree that the original drawer has the right to dispute the check; it is just that under the UCC, banks have obligations also. Otherwise, no one would ever accept a check if they were forever liable for a chargeback, and just think of the billions of check transactions that take place every year. All I am saying is that a check recipient can relax after 14 days. That is why the UCC was adopted - so that negotiable instruments could be used in place of cash.
 
Nope, no argument here whatsoever. In fact, I think it's good to have the perspective from both industries. It shows how confusing it really is. There are laws to protect the consumer, and laws to protect banks and sometimes they clash. Good info all around, bppump. There is certainly a burden of proof on the victim and his bank to prove that fraud occured (comparison of signatures, etc.), and a chargeback and debiting of the check recipients account won't happen until that proof is shown.
 
Good info. I totally agree. It bjust shows how complex the law is, and that bank policies don't always conform completely to those laws.

Your basic point, though, is well put. Don't take checks from people you don't know or for more than you are willing to lose. Even a cashier's check can have a stop payment put on it if the drawer is willing to sign an affidavit that it was lost or stolen.

Good discussion.
 
.......I don't think ANY member on this board, after reading my posts, would conclude that doing business with everyone from Thailand is risky. This is more a discussion about the payment process than about an individual. This is also a case of "all's well that ends well" , as the information I have received about the individual reveals there is no reason to question his character. Fundamentally. no wrong has been committed, and therefore there is no need to disclose a name.

I believe the members here are smart enough and discriminating enough to not
assume doing business with a Thai poses any greater risk than doing business with someone from, say, Mexico. On Blade Forums, we tend to think every member "in good standing" to be honorable ...........regardless of their nationality !

- Best

Dear Gramps,

Thank you very much for explaination, yes all comments are based on the process of check payment and I'm respected that BF members are smart enough.

My concern is just this post is "HEADS UP : Buyer from Thailand", it made a bit bias to group of people (I don't want to use word "discrimination"), instead of this subject, another subject such as "Risk of payment" or other should be better.


BRGDS,
Isara.
 
Dear Gramps,

Thank you very much for explaination, yes all comments are based on the process of check payment and I'm respected that BF members are smart enough.

My concern is just this post is "HEADS UP : Buyer from Thailand", it made a bit bias to group of people (I don't want to use word "discrimination"), instead of this subject, another subject such as "Risk of payment" or other should be better.


BRGDS,
Isara.

I appreciate your concerns. If I were able to edit the title at this late date, as a show of respect for your worries, I would be willing. However, Blade Forums software does not allow for the original thread title to be altered but within the post. Again........my intention was not to incriminate anyone, particularly the Thai nationality. I believe that even if someone were to only read the title of the thread without reading the posts, they would NOT automatically conclude that all of our good members from Thailand pose a business risk to a seller. I meant no disrespect to the Thai people.......I only included the "nationality of origin" of this particular individual because I did not want to reveal his name.

In any event, I take your concerns to heart...and will repeat again : " On Blade Forums, we tend to think every member 'in good standing' to be honorable ...........regardless of their nationality !". There is no evidence to the contrary, of this I am sure ! At this point, it is the best I can do.

- Respectfully
 
This has been an informative post. The post was legitimate and the concerns well-presented. If someone gets the impression that Thailand breeds poor members by not reading the post, then they are simply .... dumb.

Whether it be BladeForums or even eBay, every time I have had a transaction from ANYWHERE over in the far East, I have been gratefully satisfied. As far as 'profiling' goes, I give our Thailand members two thumbs up! ;)

Coop
 
This has been an informative post. The post was legitimate and the concerns well-presented. If someone gets the impression that Thailand breeds poor members by not reading the post, then they are simply .... dumb.

Whether it be BladeForums or even eBay, every time I have had a transaction from ANYWHERE over in the far East, I have been gratefully satisfied. As far as 'profiling' goes, I give our Thailand members two thumbs up! ;)

Coop

Coop .. when a thread came up which said there was some atempted scam from england i had two people refuse to sell me knives cause i am in the UK :grumpy:

ah well...

ug
 
Coop .. when a thread came up which said there was some atempted scam from england i had two people refuse to sell me knives cause i am in the UK :grumpy:

ah well...

ug
It is almost impossible not to reveal the "country of origin" of a seller who may, or does pose a risk to the Blade Forums community. That bit of information is essential to the community to help them make decisions. That you were excluded from consideration by an American seller because one of your fellow countryman proved to be dishonorable is regrettable. A fact to bear in mind however, is that as Americans, we are increasingly deluged by fraudulent "schemes" from overseas; we have become very wary......and as a result most of us tend to err on the side of caution. While it may be unfortunate that those honest buyers and sellers from foreign shores are subjected to such scrutiny, it is now unavoidable. I think I speak for many American sellers and buyers when I say, although we try to be accomodating...one "whiff" of something foul....and "we are out the door". Present circumstances necessitate such caution. Perhaps you may think that unfair, to us it seems prudent !

- Regards
 
hey dude

it is prudent and sensible . . i'm just grumbling cause i really wanted those knives, and was willing to pay a fair price.. wish we could set up some sort of escrow system for hesitant sellers

btw still looking for a manix, lil'temperance, atr, BK9 and BK1 .. just in case anyone is willing to take pity on a limey with money but no knives :D

cheers

ug
 
For what its worth, I just concluded a knife sale to the member that this post is in reference to. I have bought and sold knives with people on this site, knife forums, E-Bay, and USNCOM.

This member by far has been the most detail oriented, meticulous, proffessional, individual that I have dealt with on the internet. He works for a high level law firm and our transaction went off seamlessly and without a hitch.

I think the scammers have messed it up for everyone. The majority of the knife forums members are decent, trustworthy people, like this guy.

I don't know about anyone else, but I like enjoy doing International deals, it is fun to have some sort of connnection with our overseas brothers that appreciate fine steel:D

I would do another transaction with this member in a half a heartbeat!!!!!!

rjd
 
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