Heat Treating - Can someone help me understand what Murray Carter is doing?

[Matthew Gregory]

Uh huh.

:thumbup:

Lots of common steels are better than white or blue steel. These alloys are made for easy heat treating. They are adequate for most cutlery applications, but not superior. I don't understand all the hype.

Hoss

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I made a post earlier this morning, but it seems to not have posted??

Like Stuart, I am not directing my comment to Tenebr0s. My dissapointment is toward the Japanese Guild and Hitachi Steel company.


The reply to my question was what I expected. The Guild's oppinion is:
"Only Japanese smiths and those trained by our members ( like Murray's students) can properly make a knife from Hitachi steel."

What BS! There are great smiths outside Japan ... and poor smiths in Japan. Quality is not geographical.

Controlling a source of steel to protect a group of makers from competition is just part of the hype of Japanese blades. The worry is that if western and otehr makers had free access to Hitachi White #1, they could make equal or better blades that sell for $300 istead of the Japanese makers selling hyped blades for $1000. The Guild has political power, and forces these decisions.

 

[Kentucky]

Ill add my meager thoughts on a Hitachi steels..Forgive me Im a bit addle brained, just got home from scouting a new WMA were I got drawn for a quota hunt..
First off I like Hitachi steels. I have white and blue on the bench..I think it takes a screaming edge so easy..I love blue for woodworking tools..We have made a bunch of chisels,bowl gouges and hook knives from it and it slices wood forever..
Now that said I don't think its magical by any means..Though Id love to get my hands on some super blue . Ive got AEB-L heat treated to 62rc in our kitchen that seems nearly magical at times and some plain old garden variety 1095 at 62rc that would shock many.. Lots of steels out there that's probably better but it is a really good steel that has a lot of mystique around it..People just like it, simple as that.
Some customers just want it, they will pay for it and nothing will change their minds..Not my first choice by any means but that hardly matters as no one will sell it to me anyway I hate to say anything about Mr carters methods as I have great respect for the business hes built. Its obvious he knows what hes doing, Ive seen his knives in use and they work,really well...My all accounts hes a great guy to be around.

 

[lazlo]

Lots of steels out there that's probably better but it is a really good steel that has a lot of mystique around it.

Yep. I was part of the attempted Hitachi group buy that Stacy was on, then a negotiation for a whole coil of Hitachi white on a separate (private) order. Both times the Hitachi rep yanked us around: raising the price each time we spoke, until he finally stopped responding.

Like Stacy says, Hitachi is under immense pressure from the knife guilds to not ship the steel out of Japan. I can now get small quantities from a Japanese swordsmith I studied under, but it's really not worth the trouble/expense.

Ive got AEB-L heat treated to 62rc in our kitchen that seems nearly magical at times

Ironically, the high-end Japanese cutlers love Swedish steel, especially AEB-L and 12c27. Surprised Hitachi hasn't made their own colored paper version of AEB-L, that can only be heat treated by Japanese-trained smiths

 

[Kentucky]

Yep. I was part of the attempted Hitachi group buy that Stacy was on, then a negotiation for a whole coil of Hitachi white on a separate (private) order. Both times the Hitachi rep yanked us around: raising the price each time we spoke, until he finally stopped responding.

Like Stacy says, Hitachi is under immense pressure from the knife guilds to not ship the steel out of Japan. I can now get small quantities from a Japanese swordsmith I studied under, but it's really not worth the trouble/expense.



Ironically, the high-end Japanese cutlers love Swedish steel, especially AEB-L and 12c27. Surprised Hitachi hasn't made their own colored paper version of AEB-L, that can only be heat treated by Japanese-trained smiths

It reminds me of the gun trade business at times.. I remember dealing with traders and dealers that would do the same thing..raise the price each time trying to scare you and then finally when they can tell your serious they just bow out all together.
Its not that I really want it as a money maker Id just like to have some. probably because I cant get it Though Ill admit Ive tried for years to get even a small amount of super blue. Just for myself,even scraps to weld into cutting bits with no luck.

 

[DevinT]

Uddeholm makes a 1.25 carbon, low manganese, super clean steel with .30 chrome. The small amount of chrome refines the grain. I've used the uddeholm grade, it's equal to or better than white #1.

52100, A2, aeb-l, cru-forge v are steels that I like a lot.

Hoss

 

[comet_sharp]

Robin Dalman has been making kitchen knives from Uddeholm uhb20c hardened to 63hrc i have been dying to try. Looks awesome.

 

[JTknives]

I have never used any of the Hitachi steels but man do I love A2 as well as 52100. I made a tiny thin fillet knife for my wife out of A2 and man does that thing cut. So far it's done a turkey, 3 roosters and half of a big buck and it's still screaming sharp. By "done" I mean removed all the meat and cut up the meat for packaging. I find it hard to believe a simple carbon Hitachi steel would out preform this.

 

[Kentucky]

Uddeholm makes a 1.25 carbon, low manganese, super clean steel with .30 chrome. The small amount of chrome refines the grain. I've used the uddeholm grade, it's equal to or better than white #1

Hoss

That sounds lclose to a steel I know they make called 1.2206

 

[jdm61]

Hoss, there seem to be a number of German steels that bear at least a passing resemblance to the blue steel. Good old 115W8 comes to mind along with a couple of the Bestar steels that are sold to the timber industry.

Uddeholm makes a 1.25 carbon, low manganese, super clean steel with .30 chrome. The small amount of chrome refines the grain. I've used the uddeholm grade, it's equal to or better than white #1.

52100, A2, aeb-l, cru-forge v are steels that I like a lot.

Hoss

 

[Tenebr0s]

Not trying to start a flame war, but Murray's statement about Hitachi being afraid other makers will give the steels a "bad name" is frankly a load of BS. I'm able to get a limited amount here, and I'm certainly no master. More likely is the fact that Hitachi knows its steel has a good reputation and would prefer to keep it reserved for the Japanese cutlery industry to give it a competitive edge. Japanese industrial companies also tend to be extremely rigid in their refusal to sell directly to customers. I've sometimes had a hard time getting some of the abrasives I want, for example, because the company wouldn't sell directly to me, and I had hell of time finding a middleman who could order it from them. It's just tends to be how business is done here...

Sometimes the things Murray says in his newsletter really smack of hype for his own business. Which, admittedly, is kind of the point of a newsletter, so I'm not trying to give him too hard a time about it. But I've seen him in the past talk about how Hitachi blue (aogami), for example, is somehow an easy steel to work with, suited for apprentice smiths, whereas white (shirogami) is what masters use. This is simply not true. In fact, white is far cheaper than blue, and the blades made with it are cheaper as well.

I really have to take issue with the statement that these steels are easy to heat treat. THEY ARE NOT. A hypereutectoid like 1095 is not the easiest to heat treat by eye, and something like white #2 with 1.2% carbon is even harder. Then you add the problem of the tungsten in blue steel, which requires a very narrow forging range not to screw up. Frankly, I have always found it miraculous that Japanese smiths are able to do these steels by eye. The only easy one is White #3, which is like 1085. That one is pretty simple HT, but honestly most smiths don't use it. One of my teachers here didn't even know what it was when I was looking for some.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Thanks for a straight up response and statement. It is good to know that all who trained under "the masters" didn't drink the Kool-Aid.

As an aside, Aldo is working with his German foundry to make a run of Hitachi White #1 equivalent. If enough people want it, he will pull the trigger on the run. It costs him a lot to make 10-15 tons of steel, so he won't do it if you don't ask him for it. If this equivalent steel gets made into tens of thousands of good kitchen knives, it will somewhat deflate the hype on Hitachi steel. I think that would be a good thing for everyone.

 

[Tenebr0s]

I have never used any of the Hitachi steels but man do I love A2 as well as 52100. I made a tiny thin fillet knife for my wife out of A2 and man does that thing cut. So far it's done a turkey, 3 roosters and half of a big buck and it's still screaming sharp. By "done" I mean removed all the meat and cut up the meat for packaging. I find it hard to believe a simple carbon Hitachi steel would out preform this.

Just to point out, Hitachi steel doesn't necessarily equal "simple carbon." White steel is simple carbon, but blue contains chromium and tungsten, and Blue Super has chromium, tungsten, molybdenum, and vanadium. The blue steels should certainly be able to hold their own against something like 52100 in taking and holding fine edges in the kitchen, and are certainly far more than just adequate. No need to have hype (nobody's saying they're magic, and plenty of Japanese makers prefer Swedish carbon steels as well as stainless), but they're not inferior either. As for the white steels, they're going to be in the class of W1 and 1095. White steel takes a great edge, and is a joy to sharpen, but will need sharpening more often.

 

[JTknives]

I was not trying to bash the White steels at all, sorry if it came across like that. I was just saying I don't see the reason for the hype when other steels preform so well.

 

[Tenebr0s]

I was not trying to bash the White steels at all, sorry if it came across like that. I was just saying I don't see the reason for the hype when other steels preform so well.

Totally agree. I was actually more replying to some posts by other members earlier in the thread who were suggesting the steels were just adequate performers formulated to be easy to HT, which is just not true.

They're really good steels, but so are plenty of others steels from Europe and the US. Hype is just BS to sell stuff.

 

[DevinT]

They are easy to heat treat, they have low manganese and do not require long or complicated annealing cycles. Judging the temperature by eye may be tricky, but that does not make it difficult to heat treat. The Japanese smiths that I've seen do a short anneal, a single quench, and a single temper, not complicated.

I have owned and used many knives made from white and blue steels and they are only adequate. I find these steels to be chippy.

Hoss

 

[JTknives]

One thing I was impressed by was how thin he forged that blade. It's completely different then how most of us do it "forge thick, grind thin".

 

[Tenebr0s]

They are easy to heat treat, they have low manganese and do not require long or complicated annealing cycles. Judging the temperature by eye may be tricky, but that does not make it difficult to heat treat. The Japanese smiths that I've seen do a short anneal, a single quench, and a single temper, not complicated.

I have owned and used many knives made from white and blue steels and they are only adequate. I find these steels to be chippy.

Hoss

Hoss, I can't speak for your experience of these steels, except to say that many chefs around the world would disagree. If their knives were not performing well, there would be a lot of complaints. But it is true that Japanese knife makers heat treat to high hardness, and yes, a lot of their knives will be chippier than their western counterparts. Do you really think that is the steel -- or is it the heat treatment?

These steels were not formulated to be easy to heat treat. Yes, they are simpler than a high alloy steel like D2, but you don't see a lot of D2 in the kitchen either. They were formulated for great cutting performance on thin blades at high hardness, and I would think that by now enough makers here have made enough knives from the batch of Blue #2 that Aldo had to know this for themselves. I'm not saying it's better than something like 52100 or 1.2519, but it's in that league.


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[kuraki]

Hitachi's resistance to selling outside their domestic users doesn't surprise me at all. Dealing with Fanuc, Okuma, Toyoda (yes with a "D"), over the years, I groan whenever any issue requires getting bumped from the domestic (US) office to the Japan offices. Even though they sell us their machines/technology with willing eagerness, I can't help but feel they resent having to do it.

You can also see the stubborn resistance to change. Fanuc makes extremely stable, dependable machine controls. I haven't bought a machine since 2012 but even then, they still resisted installing a USB port on one, and to my knowledge still do not offer it as standard, only a purchasable option. This is quite ridiculous, even on a networked machine, having a USB port either as a backup NC program delivery system, or for creating program changes from a laptop at the machine, is incredibly useful and such low cost as to make it mind boggling that in 2016, it's not standard, but RS232 still is. Even on Windows based controls.

Our brand new Okuma MCR double column mill burned up the right angle head bearings after only weeks of use because of a failure to check whether the oil mister that lubricated it was actually delivering oil or not. Okuma would not let Okuma USA repair it. It had to be sent to Japan and took months to be fixed. We're talking about replacing spindle bearings, some helical bevel gears, adjusting for backlash and run out. Something done all over the place on a daily basis. And given the relative rarity of that device there wasn't one on the shelf anywhere.

Things like that I can intellectually grasp a cultural difference, but still cannot wrap my head around it and understand.

 

[kuraki]

Oh, and I meant to ask, where is Maker Material Supply getting their Hitachi steel from? They seem to have plenty for sale on Ebay. I bought one piece of blue and am halfway through a knife with it. But it's all in brown paper.