Heat Treating W2

Nice a$$ forge, Karl! Even though my little old vertical was built into a 30lb propane tank, I always noticed how very stable the temp was at the level of that hole for as long as the propane tank didn't chill too much.
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
That's an entirely different topic.
"Cut" is determined by geometry. Not steel type or heat treatment.
You ever get a paper cut? It didn't cut you because of its type or because it was hard.
It cut you because it was thin.
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I am well aware of that.

I was addressing the implications in this thread that if someone doesn't have a heat treat furnace and chooses to use a forge to do their heat treating, that doesn't mean that the knives they produce are low quality. The end purpose of the knife is to cut stuff and if it does that then it is a success.

So to the person who asked about heat treating W2 in a forge, go for it. Don't let the lack of a furnace keep you from making a knife.
 
fitzo said:
Nice a$$ forge, Karl! Even though my little old vertical was built into a 30lb propane tank, I always noticed how very stable the temp was at the level of that hole for as long as the propane tank didn't chill too much.
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Anyone else ever mess with propane powered engines? This comment has me wondering now if a forge had liquid propane ran to a converter if it would help maintain temperature..... it definitely would be more consistent in pressure/volume.
 
Karl B. Andersen Karl B. Andersen has a nice, well thought out, highly efficient set up. No doubt his years of experience has taught him a lot about knife making.

I have been all over the country demonstrating at hammer ins for many decades at this point. I’ve seen very few forges that I would use in my own shop.

We should be able to expect a knife maker to use the best materials and workmanship even if he is just giving knives away.

The ABS and the Knife Makers Guild have strict guidelines to become advanced members for a reason.

I am definitely the antagonist in this story.

Heat treating is the step child of knife making.

We are losing ground to import knives, they are doing higher quality work and using high quality materials for a fraction of what we are charging.

Every knife made that doesn’t perform well allows imports to gain more ground.

Every maker doing a poor heat treat will live to regret it, they will come back to bite you.

Hoss
 
Contender Machine said:
I am well aware of that.

I was addressing the implications in this thread that if someone doesn't have a heat treat furnace and chooses to use a forge to do their heat treating, that doesn't mean that the knives they produce are low quality. The end purpose of the knife is to cut stuff and if it does that then it is a success.

So to the person who asked about heat treating W2 in a forge, go for it. Don't let the lack of a furnace keep you from making a knife.
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The forge heat treated steel I have tested has not met any reasonable minimum standard of quality. They have been, without reservation, “bad.” Not in a way that I am a snooty metallurgist, but I think everyone would agree they were terrible. That doesn’t mean it is impossible to do well, but in my experience the average forge heat treated knife is no better than a roll of the dice. Even experienced knifemakers can have less consistent heat treating than they believe when heat treating by eye. And it is the “by eye” part of forge heat treating that is the issue, not necessarily the method itself. Compounding this issue is the fact that forge heat treating by eye is most commonly performed by beginner and intermediate knifemakers and you have a recipe for knives that indeed will fail in certain scenarios. They will not cut what they were intended to cut.
 
I have built a propane lawn mower and a propane generator. I still have a couple propane carburetors for small engines somewhere.
 
Larrin said:
The forge heat treated steel I have tested has not met any reasonable minimum standard of quality. They have been, without reservation, “bad.” Not in a way that I am a snooty metallurgist, but I think everyone would agree they were terrible. That doesn’t mean it is impossible to do well, but in my experience the average forge heat treated knife is no better than a roll of the dice. Even experienced knifemakers can have less consistent heat treating than they believe when heat treating by eye. And it is the “by eye” part of forge heat treating that is the issue, not necessarily the method itself. Compounding this issue is the fact that forge heat treating by eye is most commonly performed by beginner and intermediate knifemakers and you have a recipe for knives that indeed will fail in certain scenarios. They will not cut what they were intended to cut.
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Yes I definitely agree that when better tools like heat treat furnaces are available they are most definitely superior. I own 2 furnaces myself and that's how I do my heat treating now. I also own your book and love the work you've done on metallurgy. I think its fascinating.

My point was that the person who brought up this question stated that they did not have a furnace. I don't believe it's wise to tell someone to just give up on an idea and a passion because they don't have the best tools to get the job done. We all started out with minimal knowledge and tools and still made something happen in the shop because we wanted to. I made my first "real" knives with nothing more than files, an acetylene torch, hammer, anvil and most importantly a passion. Heat treat was done by heating the blade up with the torch and dipping it in a bucket of motor oil. Tempering was done in the kitchen oven. That knife cuts and holds an edge far better than most any knife you might buy at Walmart and it has never failed me. It has always cut whatever I wanted to cut with it. That is my point.

Edit to add: Remember that your standard of quality is perspective. My standard of quality has changed a lot since I made that first knife as a kid.
 
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Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I have built a propane lawn mower and a propane generator. I still have a couple propane carburetors for small engines somewhere.
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I have a 429 Ford that I built to run on propane. Dual lock offs, dual converters and dual mixers fed into a single 4 barrel carb plate via a custom adapter I made. It fires up and runs whether it's -37 or 105 outside due, mainly, to the converters. I love propane
 
A note on Karl's forge and other forges that run at even heat.
1) Look at that burner. It is a single well-built large manifold type with a good size blower.
(Running on a small blower or 1" burner pipe is fine for general forging, but won't cut it for welding and for even HT.)
2) The blower is regulated by a gate valve and the gas input is regulated by a needle valve and a shut off valve.
3) The regulator is set at a low gas pressure.
4) The forge is massive - both in size and in insulation.
5) It runs vertical. This allows the heat to swirl around the chamber and rise normally to the exit port, creating a more even heat distribution and good refractory soaking.

All the above make for good air/gas mix and a controllable flame.
 
fitzo said:
Nice a$$ forge, Karl! Even though my little old vertical was built into a 30lb propane tank, I always noticed how very stable the temp was at the level of that hole for as long as the propane tank didn't chill too much.
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It's about thermal mass, ol' buddy. (But you know that). I don't forge or heat treat with flame. I heat with radiant/reflected heat.
I'm going to do about an hour-long video on my four forges.
 
Contender Machine said:
I don't believe it's wise to tell someone to just give up on an idea and a passion
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Nah, if someone is truly passionate with great vision/ideas, they can never be discouraged.
The "fire" in them burns too hot.

They will do whatever it takes to get the tools and skills needed.

Besides, the hardest part about knife making is not getting the equipment.

My thoughts on forge versus furnace for heat treatment makes me think of an analogy about cooking a steak.

Cooking a steak in a microwave will still technically make edible food.

But should we punish the passionate people that point out there are merits to using a sous vide or a grill even though they require more time, consumables and equipment?

If the end goal is to sell the steak would anybody pay for a microwaved steak?

Making steak>eating steak?

I think we have to ask ourselves is the end goal to make the fastest and most convenient process for the maker at cost to the final product quality and customer's experience?


Or, is it about creating an amazing customer experience and product quality for the actual end consumer but at cost to the maker?

It seems the performance and quality of a handmade knife can mean many different things especially if we think raw emotions override materials science.

I certainly appreciate D DevinT sharing the uncomfortable truths here.
 
DeadboxHero said:
Nah, if someone is truly passionate with great vision/ideas, they can never be discouraged.
The "fire" in them burns too hot.

They will do whatever it takes to get the tools and skills needed.

Besides, the hardest part about knife making is not getting the equipment.

My thoughts on forge versus furnace for heat treatment makes me think of an analogy about cooking a steak.

Cooking a steak in a microwave will still technically make edible food.

But should we punish the passionate people that point out there are merits to using a sous vide or a grill even though they require more time, consumables and equipment?

If the end goal is to sell the steak would anybody pay for a microwaved steak?

Making steak>eating steak?

I think we have to ask ourselves is the end goal to make the fastest and most convenient process for the maker at cost to the final product quality and customer's experience?


Or, is it about creating an amazing customer experience and product quality for the actual end consumer but at cost to the maker?

It seems the performance and quality of a handmade knife can mean many different things especially if we think raw emotions override materials science.

I certainly appreciate D DevinT sharing the uncomfortable truths here.
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I love that analogy!
 
Sure I agree with the steak analogy. It’s a good one.

But again I will say it is all perspective. If the guy cooking his steak in the microwave is proud of it and wants to eat it and enjoy it himself then more power to him.

I was simply offering the guy who asked the question some encouragement.
 
Contender Machine said:
Sure I agree with the steak analogy. It’s a good one.

But again I will say it is all perspective. If the guy cooking his steak in the microwave is proud of it and wants to eat it and enjoy it himself then more power to him.

I was simply offering the guy who asked the question some encouragement.
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You're certainly a sweetheart.

A lot of folks are going to become discouraged and quit making knives not because of criticism but because it is dirty, low paying, tedious, sweat shop work racing to the bottom, with no shortage of folks eating every last itty bitty crumb and begging for seconds.

So, perhaps in the long run it's better to tell someone they are wrong and show them how they can improve rather than just saying "good job" leaving them in a bubble away from reality that will pop in a slight breeze.

If telling a painful truth is too much and discourages people from making knives well, like I pointed out above the job itself of making knives is significantly more difficult than getting constructive criticism online from strangers.




I think if a person can eat some grit in the shop they can certainly take some grit from criticism especially if it's coming from a constructive place and most importantly if they are asking for an answer to a question.

Here an analogy,

When we start out making knives we may have softer hands but the job doesn't care, eventually those hands will get tougher.

So, the solution is not reduce the demands of knife making for soft hands it's to get tougher hands to meet the demands of the work.

In conclusion, criticism takes a nibble but reality will swallow a person whole.

That's why constructive criticism is vital for our community when a person is asking for answers rather than just saying "good job"
 
This "constructive criticism" that, heat treating in a forge isn't possible, is your opinion. Your perspective as I said. As others in this thread have pointed out, it is in fact possible to successfully heat treat W2 in a forge. So telling someone it is impossible is just simply not true. Telling them that if they do heat treat in a forge will mean their knives are "low quality" is to make assumptions about that persons skills. Based on the video that Karl B. Andersen Karl B. Andersen posted, I'll bet good money he can do some quality heat treat in a forge.
 
Contender Machine said:
This "constructive criticism" that, heat treating in a forge isn't possible, is your opinion. Your perspective as I said. As others in this thread have pointed out, it is in fact possible to successfully heat treat W2 in a forge. So telling someone it is impossible is just simply not true. Telling them that if they do heat treat in a forge will mean their knives are "low quality" is to make assumptions about that persons skills. Based on the video that Karl B. Andersen Karl B. Andersen posted, I'll bet good money he can do some quality heat treat in a forge.
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Opinions < Charpy Testing
 
Forges are made for forging, a furnace, salt pot, or fluidized bed furnace is made for heat treating.

Heat treating in a forge might be possible but should be discouraged.

We should encourage proper equipment and techniques.

We need to stop living in a forged in fire world.

Hoss
 
DevinT said:
Forges are made for forging, a furnace, salt pot, or fluidized bed furnace is made for heat treating.

Heat treating in a forge might be possible but should be discouraged.

We should encourage proper equipment and techniques.

We need to stop living in a forged in fire world.

Hoss
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Exactly,

It's about best practices.

Just because we see somebody forging with a pogo stick jumping on an anvil doesn't mean that's the best practice or what we should aspire to.
 
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