Heat Treating W2

I have never disagreed with any of this. Quite the opposite. All I was saying is that if the guy doesn't have a furnace and he wants to try it in a forge, then more power to him. Before the advent of furnaces, forges were used for heat treating. When the next best technology comes around and electric furnaces are outdated will you all agree that the knives you heat treated in a furnace are low quality junk? I don't understand why people can't get what I am saying. A person can heat treat a quality knife with a forge. It has been done for far longer than any of us have been around.
 
Contender Machine said:
I have never disagreed with any of this. Quite the opposite. All I was saying is that if the guy doesn't have a furnace and he wants to try it in a forge, then more power to him. Before the advent of furnaces, forges were used for heat treating. When the next best technology comes around and electric furnaces are outdated will you all agree that the knives you heat treated in a furnace are low quality junk? I don't understand why people can't get what I am saying. A person can heat treat a quality knife with a forge. It has been done for far longer than any of us have been around.
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No one here can physically stop anyone from doing anything.


If one decides they want to heat treat with static electricity. Go for it, but what if they're doing it only because they don't know any better?

Should somebody say what the best practices are even if It hurts the feelings of the person that likes to heat treat by rubbing two balloons together on a blade?


The best practice for a quality heat treatment is a furnace not eyeballing colors in a forge, that's is a fact backed up with not only knowledge about metallurgy but also testing data.

Any exceptions to the rule need data, not feelings and emotions to confirm.

We could test to confirm this even further.

We can make 10 charpy conditions per person of the same steel one person with a forge heat treat and another person who uses a furnace and we can compare the two with testing.

We will certainly see with an average of 10 conditions each. The person with the furnace will certainly have more consistency and better performance.

Is that fair to the customer that the forge HT wasn't as good for his knife?

Do we have to have a chef microwave steaks because it's too superfluous and stressful for him to learn how to use a grill?


Waiter to unsatisfied customer-

"I'm sorry your steak doesn't taste as good but that's just your subjective opinion. This was much easier for the Chef to do. We didn't want to hurt his feelings and tell him it wasn't possible to cook steak without a grill and knowledge of how to use it, plenty of people don't have a grill and still cook food"
 
Again, I never disagreed that a furnace is better for heat treating than a forge. My original comment was in regards to the people that implied that heat treating in a furnace will create a low quality product and it is a waste of time to do so. This is useless advice without explanations. If someone asked me if they can heat treat W2 in a forge because they don't have a furnace I would explain to them the problems and effects this will cause and also explain that it is still possible to make a quality knife without the furnace. The guy never said he intended to sell the knife so you are assuming there is a customer involved. If there is a customer involved then the maker shouldn't (and likely isn't) claiming to be a professional. So, I don't see a problem with it as long as everyone is transparent. The guy made it clear in his question that he was aware of the potential problems, in fact that's why he asked the question. I would recommend reading this all a little more carefully. You are making a lot of assumptions.
 
I think we should encourage knife making and discourage poor heat treating.

Based on current testing, heat treating in a forge is not reliable or consistent.

I spoke to a well known maker who was trained by Japanese smiths in the use of a charcoal forge for heat treating and he admitted that it is very inconsistent and not every knife he makes has a good heat treatment.

Hoss
 
I have no doubt that heat treating in a coal forge is very inconsistent. A propane forge is better and an electric furnace is much, much better yet. But we use what we have at hand. If I hadn't started out heat treating with a cutting torch then I would have never completed a knife. If I never completed a knife I likely never would have made it far enough to spend several thousand dollars on a pair of furnaces. I would venture to say this is the case for most knife makers. As long as we are learning and moving forward that's what matters.
 
Contender Machine said:
I would recommend reading this all a little more carefully.
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Ok



Contender Machine said:
Again, I never disagreed that a furnace is better for heat treating than a forge.

My original comment was in regards to the people that implied that heat treating in a furnace will create a low quality product
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Your post original post below 👇

Contender Machine said:
If a knife is heat treated in a forge and it cuts the things it was intended to cut, is it still a low quality failure? It's all about perspective.
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Matter of perspective? Yikes.

Heat treating is not subjective.


Contender Machine said:
If someone asked me if they can heat treat W2 in a forge because they don't have a furnace I would explain to them the problems and effects this will cause
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You've done the opposite in this thread.

Yes, I also came from using extremely rudimentary tools to heat treat, then I realized if I don't have the tools I could always send out for heat treat service until I can afford those tools.

Contender Machine said:
guy never said he intended to sell the knife so you are assuming there is a customer involved.
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Yes, I am guilty of assuming when somebody asks a question they want good information for improvement and constructive criticism rather than blind words of affirmation for lackluster practices.

Contender Machine said:
You are making a lot of assumptions.
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Yes, I assumed that most people would rather have a perfectly cooked grilled steak than microwaved one and if they are going to microwave it anyways me telling them why grilling a steak is better is not going to stop them.

Of course, that's a matter of perspective since taste is subjective.

However, heat treatment is not subjective, It is measurable, quantifiable and objective.

If somebody is going to make a knife, they don't need words of affirmation for poor practices in order to make one.

There is no shortage of that.

There is however a severe shortage of people sharing a few drops of best practices in an ocean of subjectivity.

I feel it is you assuming If we don't give words of affirmation to makers using poor practices then we are setting up aspiring new knife makers to failure. I feel it is the opposite, so we'll have to agree to disagree and move on.
 
Quality of a finished product is subjective. That is what I said. If the guy makes a knife and heat treats it in a furnace and he is happy with it and you aren't then that is two different perspectives. He succeeded in his eyes while you think he failed. That is what I said.

Basically the guy asked: "I realize it would be better if I had a furnace to heat treat W2 but I only have a forge. So is there anyway I can accomplish heat treating it in a forge? The end consumers aren't picky and it wont mean a bit of difference to them."

And the answer given was: "Heat treating in a forge is a bad idea."

That wasn't helpful. It was an insult to his intelligence. Just because someone is in a position to help someone else does not give them the right to disparage the person needing help.

You are choosing to argue with me only for arguments sake at this point. So I will not waste anymore time.
 
Contender Machine said:
Quality of a finished product is subjective. That is what I said. If the guy makes a knife and heat treats it in a furnace and he is happy with it and you aren't then that is two different perspectives. He succeeded in his eyes while you think he failed. That is what I said.

Basically the guy asked: "I realize it would be better if I had a furnace to heat treat W2 but I only have a forge. So is there anyway I can accomplish heat treating it in a forge? The end consumers aren't picky and it wont mean a bit of difference to them."

And the answer given was: "Heat treating in a forge is a bad idea."

That wasn't helpful. It was an insult to his intelligence. Just because someone is in a position to help someone else does not give them the right to disparage the person needing help.

You are choosing to argue with me only for arguments sake at this point. So I will not waste anymore time.
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That's a lot of assumptions.
 
Hopefully there's no argument that what is really the important issue is not the device but the necessity for excellent temperature/time control and the underlying metallurgy of the steel at those temps. When we teach science, and not just dogma, we are better teachers. Good teachers lead students to reach new understanding on their own. They try to get them the information to reach understanding and thus knowledge. Maybe even, eventually, a little wisdom may result. I don't know, I'm still waiting for that part. :)
Being a scientist, I have stressed the importance of technical understanding of heat treating since I joined this place long ago. Lots of friction. :oops: It is good to see that spirit persists.

And because I want to continue learning, I still want to see Karl control that forge at an appropriate temp for the right amount of time to heat treat a "hold at temp" steel. The only reason one can't use a forge is the usual piss poor temp control. Hopefully we'll learn something from Karl.

A crap furnace that swings wildly is no more good than an unstable forge. temp control temp control temp control
 
Yup, there is a lot of bad heat treating no matter what the heat source.

I recommend that anyone wanting to heat treat using a forge, make some test coupons so that we can compare them to the samples already tested. That will give you confidence knowing that you are getting a good heat treat. If the results are not good, we can try to help you make the necessary adjustments.

Coupon size is 2.5 mm x 10 mm x 55 mm. They need to be precision ground to 120 grit. Longitudinal direction is preferred. Hardness around 60 hrc is about where we have been testing. Three coupons per alloy or condition are needed.

Hoss
 
I like the article that Larrin posted on KSN some time back about heat treating 80CrV2 in a forge vs electric oven.

I don't recall all of the details, but the point wasn't "Is an oven BETTER than a forge?" But rather, "This is the best way to heat treat 80CrV2 in a forge." and "This is the best way to heat treat 80CrV2 in an oven." I think it applies quite well to W2 because of the almost identical vanadium % in both steels, and the W2 we get isn't super high in carbon %, either.

He also discusses some other major variables as well, as in where the steel was sourced vs another supplier, and also a very important point, the microstructure of the steel prior to heat treating. There is only one source for W2 that I know of here in the states, and it all comes from the Buderus mill, so at least that variable is moot. Unless you're some lucky soul like DH3, or a VERY good friend of his!

The way I see it, if a forge CAN hold a temp as tightly as an electric oven, and the steel can be protected from the oxygen equally in both set ups, I would "think" CATRA and CHARPY tests would show very close results.
 
I too am looking forward to Karl’s forge video. That’s something I can definitely nerd out on.

That’s a very generous offer Hoss.
 
Here's my first knife a 52100 Nakiri partially inspired by a Devin T video grinding a Nakiri it's not as easy as he made it look especially with a 1×30. It's still going strong after 14 years. It's my 88 year old mother in law's go to knife. I heat treated it with fire bricks, hard charcoal and a hair dryer. You can probably get two meals out of it with one or two swipes on a ceramic hone, it's probably 58 rc. After that knife I started taking lessons and could heat treat at my mentors shop. Then I built a Pid controlled forge and would use that with or without a muffle or my mentors heat treat oven. For me it's an expensive hobby so I've bought or built equipment as I could and learned along the way. Now I have a heat treat oven, Pid controlled tempering oven, Rockwell tester and small but functional shop even a Sand pot I need to get back to. That first knife is functional hopefully they are better now. I am always striving to improve. I'm happy to see that first knife so well used properly heat treated or not.
https://imgur.com/a/PGbJlCM
 
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Gilbert M said:
Here's my first knife a 52100 Nakiri partially inspired by a Devin T video grinding a Nakiri it's not as easy as he made it look especially with a 1×30. It's still going strong after 14 years. It's my 88 year old mother in law's go to knife. I heat treated it with fire bricks, hard charcoal and a hair dryer. You can probably get two meals out of it with one or two swipes on a ceramic hone, it's probably 58 rc. After that knife I started taking lessons and could heat treat at my mentors shop. Then I built a Pid controlled forge and would use that with or without a muffle or my mentors heat treat oven. For me it's an expensive hobby so I've bought or built equipment as I could and learned along the way. Now I have a heat treat oven, Pid controlled tempering oven, Rockwell tester and small but functional shop even a Sand pot I need to get back to. That first knife is functional hopefully they are better now. I am always striving to improve. I'm happy to see that first knife so well used properly heat treated or not.
https://imgur.com/a/PGbJlCM
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That’s what it’s all about. The adventure of learning and developing all the skills needed to make a knife. Looks great 👍
 
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