Help get Yangdu and the Kami community discovered

[Tim the Wizard]

Bawanna I respect your posts but I would have to disagree about customizing knives w/micarta as a sign of disrespect for tradition. For people with hyper-sensitivity to many of the traditional woods used it would be great to have that option. Likewise, some people do not use animal products such as horn and bone, which also tend to be quite slippery. I think respect is something emergent from the nature of the transaction and the spirit of use and the way we support the kamis.

That said, I think for the kamis to do it would probably be an occupational hazard and certainly phenolics/carbon fiber/rare woods are treated in the western world with a great margin of safety that may or may not be plausible in the nepal work stations.

But in any case the khukuris like the kamis are here with us today and there are many ways to do something while still showing respect.

 

[Steve Tall]

A good article (along the lines of what George has brought up in comparison with ABS knives), in a magazine like Blade, would give more exposure. Though I think it's important that they are not seen as cheap import wannabes (taking customers away from the ABS members niche) because it's a different tradition that goes way back.

Even a YouTube video by somebody with a lot of followers could send a bunch of new customers to HI, as happened a couple years ago.

 

[Bawanna]

Bawanna I respect your posts but I would have to disagree about customizing knives w/micarta as a sign of disrespect for tradition. For people with hyper-sensitivity to many of the traditional woods used it would be great to have that option. Likewise, some people do not use animal products such as horn and bone, which also tend to be quite slippery. I think respect is something emergent from the nature of the transaction and the spirit of use and the way we support the kamis.

That said, I think for the kamis to do it would probably be an occupational hazard and certainly phenolics/carbon fiber/rare woods are treated in the western world with a great margin of safety that may or may not be plausible in the nepal work stations.

But in any case the khukuris like the kamis are here with us today and there are many ways to do something while still showing respect.

I agree with what you say. If a person wants a modern product for a handle that's fine, but it should be put on here.
Sending stuff to Nepal and having them work with materials they are unfamiliar with don't seem right to me.
The health issues as you mention is a big factor. They have more than enough risk factors making knives the way they do over there.

 

[George Azar]

A good article (along the lines of what George has brought up in comparison with ABS knives), in a magazine like Blade, would give more exposure. Though I think it's important that they are not seen as cheap import wannabes (taking customers away from the ABS members niche) because it's a different tradition that goes way back.

Even a YouTube video by somebody with a lot of followers could send a bunch of new customers to HI, as happened a couple years ago.

I think that's an excellent idea for exposure and that's all I'm after anyway! It's not about any becoming ABS members, but rather exposure to up their demand and sales, which would translate into price increase : bad for you and me, the consumer/collector, but good for their community!

 

[davidf99]

There are many ways to show respect for a knife and the tradition that it comes from. If you spend many hours or mucho dinero customizing a knife, for example by changing the handle to micarta, or doing the kind of engraving that Bawanna is known for, that is certainly a sign of respect for the blade. How much priority you give to keeping the original look is entirely up to the individual.

I personally consider the tradition very important. That doesn't stop me from occasionally taking one of the knives and polishing the handle way beyond what the kami or helper would have time to do. Some of the handles have wood with such beautiful color and grain structure that they just beg for extra attention.

On the other hand, there are people on this forum who love the HI blades but are not as much into the tradition, and might prefer to rehandle with synthetic materials. That's a legitimate position and not necessarily disrespectful. However, I wouldn't ask the HI kamis to work with those materials, for all the reasons that people have given above. Besides, kamis can be quite stubborn about changing their ways, as Uncle Bill pointed out in some of his early postings. Bear in mind that blademaking is not only a part of their family and cultural heritage. it is also closely linked with their historical and religious traditions. When was the last time you convinced anyone on a religious question?

 

[Bookie]

Yep, Joe. For a fella who has the second bestest Curved Spine, you covered my sentiments rather well.

 

[Bawanna]

I got the bestest Curved spine Mr. Don't make me come down there...well that ain't much of a threat is it. I'd love to come down there.

Curved spines at 20 paces. No throwing................

 

[mc5aw]

My 2c, with all due respect ... The ABS is not the place for HI kamis ... it is a tight knitted fraternity of blade craftsmen and empresarios, similar to the exclusive Yale/Harvard clubs, who produce high $ modern art. Conversely, HI creations are high quality/low $/hard use tools, all of which will outperform the vast majority of the ABS competition. HI's masters are a talented group unto their own, best promoted through word of mouth and slash of blade by those of us who trust their work, and are committed to supporting them through our purchases. The bulk of ABS creations are synonymous with a fleet of temperature controlled garage-kept Ferraris that come out once in a blue moon for the Concours d'Elegance; HI is a workingman's roster of indestructible 4x4s waiting for an offroad challenge to devour.

 

[davidf99]

.... The bulk of ABS creations are synonymous with a fleet of temperature controlled garage-kept Ferraris that come out once in a blue moon for the Concours d'Elegance; HI is a workingman's roster of indestructible 4x4s waiting for an offroad challenge to devour.

Well said. I often check the Bladeforums Exchange and enjoy looking at some of the high end works of art that are usually way out of my price range. It's like a trip to the museum. Sometimes I follow the links to the larger body of work of those artists/craftsmen and just enjoy the beauty of their creations. However, I wouldn't dream of chopping anything with one of those blades if it came into my possession, even though they are solid and extremely well made.

The HI blades that I actually have fall into two categories, those that I would use, and those I prefer to admire, but in a pinch any of them would be perfectly good as a workhorse blade.

A comparison of HI blades and ABS creations is like apples and oranges. It's like comparing the U.S. and Nepal, two countries with a common humanity, yet vastly different in many ways. One of things I like best about this forum is the way people try to bridge that gap and show respect for another culture. The kamis also bridge the gap by making small but significant changes in their work, such as larger handles and better fit & finish, which is not necessarily an easy thing for someone who might have started forging knives or helping in the shop from the age of ten.

 

[Bawanna]

Once again I think Georges intent is sound and I truly admire him for putting forth effort but also again, I think exposure is the key. I know Yangdu is playing with Facebook and testing the waters there.
I just don't care much for big changes, I like things to stay the same but of course nothing ever stays the same.

Nice to have George on our side promoting. That's a good thing.

 

[George Azar]

My 2c, with all due respect ... The ABS is not the place for HI kamis ... it is a tight knitted fraternity of blade craftsmen and empresarios, similar to the exclusive Yale/Harvard clubs, who produce high $ modern art. Conversely, HI creations are high quality/low $/hard use tools, all of which will outperform the vast majority of the ABS competition. HI's masters are a talented group unto their own, best promoted through word of mouth and slash of blade by those of us who trust their work, and are committed to supporting them through our purchases. The bulk of ABS creations are synonymous with a fleet of temperature controlled garage-kept Ferraris that come out once in a blue moon for the Concours d'Elegance; HI is a workingman's roster of indestructible 4x4s waiting for an offroad challenge to devour.

I personally know several Bladesmith that by no means are Harvard/Yale elite. These men came from the Kami community of America and continued working and forging, starting making knives on the side while they developed their skills and exposed their work with failure quit often.
I also know personally one that is a university professor also studying metallurgy until he developed his skills as well!
Many failures, quite often!
One worked at a local folk center in the Arkansas Ozarks, a place that taught and preserved crafts. Working as a blacksmith as his full time job, making knives on the side.
These men presented their work when they thought it was up to speed, and passed these tests.

Let me note, the Kamis in my opinion are master craftsmen! My thoughts aren't to change their work but rather to teach the ABS how to make better knives...my opinion but I believe it's an honest opinion.

I'll back off from my endeavor as my intention is good.

I really like a suggestion someone stated earlier. If an article was written and submitted to Blade magazine about the history and accomplishments of Himalayan Imports and bring this to the knife market community, I think/know it would boost the sales of H I!

This is my personal goal!
I personally have caused an addiction to a personal friend as he's constantly on HI website and this is my goal on the U.S. level!

Nepal would laugh at the blacksmiths in the US....maybe?

Thank you all for continuing to educate me.
If someone could write an article or help me as I don't know enough about the origin of HI other than what is in the web page. If I wrote an article and it was published I see I'd have lots of critics but this isn't about me.

Good night all. I've got some thinking to do and again thank you for all the help.

George

 

[ndoghouse]

What Bawanna said. Much appreciated George. Their politics is a bit different than here too. If anyone outside saw these Kamis striking it rich they would immediately be stricken back down to their Kami status and then some. There is a good balance right now with the optics of a bunch of blacksmiths making a living and another caste doing their thing. One must be careful not to raise the optics of this shop doing business as usual. Western imperialism is not very popular in some parts of the world.

 

[Steve Tall]

...Their politics is a bit different than here too....a bunch of blacksmiths making a living and another caste doing their thing...

Some more background from a fairly recent newspaper article quoted below. In a nutshell, the kamis and sarkis (along with musicians, tailors, etc.) are considered "Dalits" aka "untouchables", and there is a movement in the Nepalese society to hopefully stop the ways they are discriminated against and suppressed.


"Dalits are those who belong to certain caste groups and suffer caste-based discrimination (CBD) and the superstitious malpractice of untouchability endorsed by the state-protected Hindu ideology with certain dogmas or beliefs of caste hierarchy. Dalits are even described as a Dalit community, not Dalit caste. It is a large community which includes dozens of castes. According to the NDC, there are three types of Dalits—Hill Dalits, Tarai Dalits and Newar Dalits. Hill Dalits consist of the following castes: Sarki (Mijar) leather workers; Kami (Bishwakarma) blacksmiths, ironsmiths and goldsmiths; Damai (Pariyar, Dholi, Darji and Suchikar) tailors; and Gandarva (Gaine) musicians...

...“There is a superiority complex and an inferiority complex that ‘superior’ castes and ‘inferior’ castes respectively embody. This is the major challenge for eliminating CBD and untouchability.” As stated in his opinion, most Dalits still feel inferior in the sense that they hesitate to participate in performances and rituals of pro-Dalits despite being invited to join them."

"...The state needs to act and end this discrimination against Dalits because the people are not going to do it. The state should apologise to Dalits for centuries of discrimination and mention this in the preamble to the constitution. The constitution amendment bill should contain words expressing apology and remorse. Dalits should be included in every state mechanism under the spirit of proportional representation. This is the time to do something for Dalits through constitutional provisions in order to create a civilised and equitable society."

The Kathmandu Post, December 23, 2016
http://kathmandupost.ekantipur.com/news/2016-12-23/make-it-a-crime.html

 

[George Azar]

Some more background from a fairly recent newspaper article quoted below. In a nutshell, the kamis and sarkis (along with musicians, tailors, etc.) are considered "Dalits" aka "untouchables", and there is a movement in the Nepalese society to hopefully stop the ways they are discriminated against and suppressed.


"Dalits are those who belong to certain caste groups and suffer caste-based discrimination (CBD) and the superstitious malpractice of untouchability endorsed by the state-protected Hindu ideology with certain dogmas or beliefs of caste hierarchy. Dalits are even described as a Dalit community, not Dalit caste. It is a large community which includes dozens of castes. According to the NDC, there are three types of Dalits—Hill Dalits, Tarai Dalits and Newar Dalits. Hill Dalits consist of the following castes: Sarki (Mijar) leather workers; Kami (Bishwakarma) blacksmiths, ironsmiths and goldsmiths; Damai (Pariyar, Dholi, Darji and Suchikar) tailors; and Gandarva (Gaine) musicians...

...“There is a superiority complex and an inferiority complex that ‘superior’ castes and ‘inferior’ castes respectively embody. This is the major challenge for eliminating CBD and untouchability.” As stated in his opinion, most Dalits still feel inferior in the sense that they hesitate to participate in performances and rituals of pro-Dalits despite being invited to join them."

"...The state needs to act and end this discrimination against Dalits because the people are not going to do it. The state should apologise to Dalits for centuries of discrimination and mention this in the preamble to the constitution. The constitution amendment bill should contain words expressing apology and remorse. Dalits should be included in every state mechanism under the spirit of proportional representation. This is the time to do something for Dalits through constitutional provisions in order to create a civilised and equitable society."

The Kathmandu Post, December 23, 2016
http://kathmandupost.ekantipur.com/news/2016-12-23/make-it-a-crime.html

So more than anything, promote sales in the US rather than promote Kamis? Let HI get the publicity?
I need your help to do/not to do this!
Thanks
George

 

[ndoghouse]

Thank you Mr. Tall for that reference. You sir are a scholar! Dalits have been subject to much the same as native Americans here and it would be great to see some legislation enacted to realize a bit of justice there. Hell... would be great to see some here as well. Civilized and equitable society sounds good to me

 

[Aleous]

I think any exposure Himalayan Imports and their kami's can get would be great. I am up for anything that lifts the kami in status, financially and in respectability.

I do not believe they should be content in their low level in society and living in object poverty. Some people fear change and think the most important thing is keeping the status quo thinking it's "good enough" how things are but I believe such thinking is backwards and antiquated and represents some of the darkest times in our own country's history.

While I personally don't think the Kami's joining the ABS is realistically feasible I do believe they should be introduced in earnest to these people who would respect the hard work the kami's put into their creations. This could further Himalayan Imports business and reputation in a positive and constructive way.

As far as tradition goes this is largely subjective and up to an every individual's definition to the word. Some people would consider H.I. kami's work to be traditional and would find any changes like including modern materials like synthetic handles an affront to that. Of course in other people's eyes the Kami's have broken from said tradition many times. Examples being going from forging their own steel to using leaf springs, using power tools instead of traditional tools and methods, making handles larger and fatter than traditional, making blades thicker and heavier. The first two were due to innovation, the latter two to cater to Western needs, us Westerners having bigger hands as a rule and liking the weight.

My personal thoughts are this, I respect tradition but also innovation. Kami's I believe are artists as well as blacksmiths and know better than any of us who have not been in their shoes what's best for their themselves and their craft. So I will respect whatever changes as a whole they adopt because so far whichever ones they have adopted has never lead to an inferior product. They will always have my business and respect.

 

[George Azar]

I think any exposure Himalayan Imports and their kami's can get would be great. I am up for anything that lifts the kami in status, financially and in respectability.

I do not believe they should be content in their low level in society and living in object poverty. Some people fear change and think the most important thing is keeping the status quo thinking it's "good enough" how things are but I believe such thinking is backwards and antiquated and represents some of the darkest times in our own country's history.

While I personally don't think the Kami's joining the ABS is realistically feasible I do believe they should be introduced in earnest to these people who would respect the hard work the kami's put into their creations. This could further Himalayan Imports business and reputation in a positive and constructive way.

As far as tradition goes this is largely subjective and up to an every individual's definition to the word. Some people would consider H.I. kami's work to be traditional and would find any changes like including modern materials like synthetic handles an affront to that. Of course in other people's eyes the Kami's have broken from said tradition many times. Examples being going from forging their own steel to using leaf springs, using power tools instead of traditional tools and methods, making handles larger and fatter than traditional, making blades thicker and heavier. The first two were due to innovation, the latter two to cater to Western needs, us Westerners having bigger hands as a rule and liking the weight.

My personal thoughts are this, I respect tradition but also innovation. Kami's I believe are artists as well as blacksmiths and know better than any of us who have not been in their shoes what's best for their themselves and their craft. So I will respect whatever changes as a whole they adopt because so far whichever ones they have adopted has never lead to an inferior product. They will always have my business and respect.

Well said Aleous! I'm good with more exposure! Probably the introduction of Auntie Yangdu is where it should go. The rest will follow!

 

[George Azar]

I want to add this comment, approximately 1985, meeting a local Bladesmith and designing a few knives Bowie fighter knives I wanted made for me by an ABS master smith, I researched the quality of spring steel and ordered a 5160 truck leaf spring to have 4 Bowie knives that I paid $500 each! These blades were capable of doing what I know these Himalayan Imports Khukris will do with great ease!
All I'm about is promotion of Himalayan Imports!
Thought I'd share a small piece of where I'm coming from.
I know several smiths that I'm hoping to get in touch with very soon!
I'll discuss this with Auntie first!
Let's pray for results!

George

 

[Bookie]

As for the kamis thinking about US blacksmiths, they know about me and haven't laughed at me yet. What I've been told is that they were surprised that an American would do something like this and I guess that is something along the lines that Uncle Bill observed about himself when he went started the business. The regulars who haunt the HI forum are protective of Mrs. Martino and her business, applaud her work ethics, are concerned when she takes a loss because of some low-rent disgruntled customer, but respect her opinion regardless of the issue. I feel that HI could profit from a higher level of business awareness, but I would be loathe to do something to pursue that tack without her personal input and approval. The reason being is that after 40 some odd years of writing books, custom gun making without electricity, knife & sword making, I didn't want more customers as I was happy with the amount I could produce and purvey at a comfortable speed. Yes, I always liked more money and in order to obtain it would occasionally make a better than average rifle or pistol. Accept that statement with this caveat. It has always been my intent to sell hand made rifles at a fair price that the average guy could reasonably afford and nothing more. Far, far too many builders now of days charge an arm and a leg, plus your first born male child for a gun made entirely from store bought parts and to me that is some baaaad Karma. Mrs. Martino can tell you more about Karma than you can imagine, so ask yourself this: What does Mrs. Martino feel about this? Act only AFTER she has made her thoughts and positions known. If she says YES! Go for it like there's no tomorrow. If she says NO! Feel good that she appreciates that you care about her and HI.

 

[George Azar]

As for the kamis thinking about US blacksmiths, they know about me and haven't laughed at me yet. What I've been told is that they were surprised that an American would do something like this and I guess that is something along the lines that Uncle Bill observed about himself when he went started the business. The regulars who haunt the HI forum are protective of Mrs. Martino and her business, applaud her work ethics, are concerned when she takes a loss because of some low-rent disgruntled customer, but respect her opinion regardless of the issue. I feel that HI could profit from a higher level of business awareness, but I would be loathe to do something to pursue that tack without her personal input and approval. The reason being is that after 40 some odd years of writing books, custom gun making without electricity, knife & sword making, I didn't want more customers as I was happy with the amount I could produce and purvey at a comfortable speed. Yes, I always liked more money and in order to obtain it would occasionally make a better than average rifle or pistol. Accept that statement with this caveat. It has always been my intent to sell hand made rifles at a fair price that the average guy could reasonably afford and nothing more. Far, far too many builders now of days charge an arm and a leg, plus your first born male child for a gun made entirely from store bought parts and to me that is some baaaad Karma. Mrs. Martino can tell you more about Karma than you can imagine, so ask yourself this: What does Mrs. Martino feel about this? Act only AFTER she has made her thoughts and positions known. If she says YES! Go for it like there's no tomorrow. If she says NO! Feel good that she appreciates that you care about her and HI.

Well said Bookie as I know many knifemakers that feel like yourself. I respect that very much. I put this thread out to get feedback, and feedback is what I got. For that, I'm humbled and thankful. I wouldn't do anything without Ms Yangdu's approval and I only intend to respect her
yes/no first before I pursue or stop in my tracks!
HI is the greatest and the forum community is priceless. Again,
thank you guys as I'm continuing to learn and grow!
Blessings to all
George