Help me understand price ceiling...

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RipD

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I don't want to get into price increases - there's already a thread on that.

There seems to be resistances from some to Spyderco knives being "expensive." This is probably true for other brands as well, but I see it come up a lot with Spyderco. I see statements like "I would never pay that much for a a Spyderco" or "I could get a mid-tech for that amount."

Let's say there's a U.S. made mid-tech knife with Ti sculpted scales, M390 steel, great blade, great grind, great action. Looks unique and fits great in most hands, good in pocket. Fit and finish are exceptional.

Now let's say the average knife nut would agree it's a $400 knife knife based on materials, machining, and fit/finish. Or imagine whatever you would expect a $400 knife to look like.

Now imagine that knife is U.S. made Spydie. Should the price automatically be lower? Why is the knife value not the same regardless of maker? I tend to lean the other way and put more value on a maker than I know will be able to service the knife and will have parts available.

Am I missing something? Am I an outlier in thinking that ongoing service and parts have value?

(Note that I have a couple of mid-techs now from a maker who seems to have disappeared. Good knives, but I'll likely never get the service I expected and am on my own to find parts.)
 
I can't say I've seen any comments in the context you provided. Some of the complaints I've seen about Spyderco and price have been towards the use of S30V when similarly priced knives use "better" (don't know enough about steel to comment on that claim) steels. Others seem to be sore on the price because it's above the range they're used to buying from (I'm in this camp). I don't think anybody is saying that Spyderco can't make high end knives.
 
In my opinion, Spyderco is a premium knife making company. They have good reason to demand top dollar for their products.

Warranty's cost a company money. People forget that.
 
Interesting. I could go back and look for examples but would rather not call out individuals. I don't want to put anybody on the spot or make them defend a specific comment. I've just seen it enough times that it made me wonder if there's a believe that Spyderco or other brands should be price limited. For me the knife worth is not determined by brand. I'd gladly pay $300 for a CRKT that was worth it. Heck, I'd gladly pay $50 for a CRKT that was worth it. (Yes, that was a cheap shot at CRKT.)
 
So the fewer you make of something the more it costs.

Combined with that on every collaboration the maker with their name on the blade is getting a cut of the action. They're not doing it for exposure.

In the past I looked at these and picking the Leafstorm as an example you could get one from Spyderco for $$$ which is "expensive" for a small knife but if you go direct to Wilkins the price leaps to $$$$$$. So the reality is that if you check the details you're getting a bargain on price, & it is usually more available than a custom. It's easier to find in person to try in hand; you don't need to sign up for a lottery and you do have the support of a larger network if you need it repaired.

I think it depends on what you want. If your shopping list is based just on ticking boxes without being clear about what's in the boxes then knives like these will always seem to expensive and you can make yourself happy with a WE knife. If you start to dig more though and understand why stuff can be expensive and you buy knives based on your needs then the prices will begin to make more sense.
 
Whether people like to admit it or not, for knife collectors, at a certain price point, quality differences start to have less to do with the usefulness of the tool itself, and have more to do with the status and bragging rights inherent to having spent that much.

So for certain brands, that have been around for a while, and are known to typically occupy a certain price point or certain price range, if suddenly they start making models well above that price point, it takes time for people to catch up to that.

This isn’t unique to knives.
 
Astronaut FX, good point. Could be that's the difference. For $400 people want more status than a Spyderco gives them(?). I carry a Ti Chaparral, which is all about looks or status, so I'm there as well. I tend to be more practical (aka cheap): I don't want to scratch an $800 knife and lose the value.
 
I dunno... a Spyderco with say titanium and CF in something like M390 would be worth the same to me as a BM, ZT, Emerson, etc. if comparing apples to apples.

I MIGHT pay $50-100 more for the perceived value (or status honestly) for something like a Hinderer or a CRK, but I would draw the line there. A sexier name on a knife with the same specs as a Spyderco (or BM, ZT..) isn’t worth a substantial amount more to me.

Spyderco makes fantastic knives, uses great materials and offer a great warranty. That’s enough for me if the prices are inline....
 
Spyderco offers quality. And they can charge more for that quality. They ain't making huge money in this business. But they believe in a good product.

Mid techs are low production #'s and spyderco does mostly mass production.
 
Lets be honest. If the ZT 0801ti said Spyderco on it, would it still be $200? Probably not. It would probably cost around the range of a Slysz Bowie, which is $300. Keep in mind, ZT are made in the US too. You are definitely paying a premium for the name. This is true across the board, all materials equal. This is why many think Spyderco is "expensive." I am not at all saying Spyderco knives aren't great. They are. I like them too. But this is the reality. Benchmade does this too, arguably to a greater degree.
 
Hi Rip,

While I cannot speak for other companies, I can tell you a bit about Spyderco.

1. We work on relatively fixed margins. We've learned what we need to run our business and try to keep our margins consistent.
2, We make knives in our Golden, Colorado factory, but we also work with OEM makers in; Japan, Italy, Taiwan and China.
3. We will design a model and have it made (or make it in Golden) and we determine our prices based on what it cost to make the knife. (ie; the price that the maker charges us for that particular model). That will include tooling, shipping and duties.
4. We believe that; "to charge as much as the market will bare" is to bite the hand that feeds you.
5. Each country of origin has its own valuation of their "dollar" against the US dollar. This valuation often fluctuates, so costs may vary due to fluctuation. Knives made in China enjoy a 6/1 valuation. Many feel this is "cheating" since China is not a 3rd world country, but they have a 3rd world "dollar" valuation. Regardless, when we make knife in China it will "generally cost us 1/6th of what it will cost us to build the same knife in Europe or Japan. Of course there are difference in steel, steel quality and other materials.
6. We try to use steels made in the country (or continent) of manufacture to limit shipping costs. Steel in Taiwan is shipped from the US to Taiwan. Sometimes we'll ship steels around depending on the models and countries, and these models will generally be more expensive.
7. While we may lower the margin in some cases (smaller maker needing more margin, Short run with no plans to re-run, etc.) we will rarely increase them much.
8. We will generally try to make the product the best it can me made. We're not big on cutting corners. We'll make it right and charge for it. If it fails in the marketplace, then so be it.

Customers will use many different formulas for determining the worth of a product. They may compare them to others they feel are comparable. They may judge the materials. Most customers are not aware of the difficulty in making certain products, or the close tolerances required. Most customers will not be aware of how difficult a particular design might be or how many prototypes and models will be needed to finalize a design.

Hope that helps.

sal
 
Thanks Sal. I wasn't questioning Spydero here. I was questioning why some people say "I would never buy a $400 Spydero" when they would pay that amount for other brands (as an example).
 
Maybe a brand image thing? Here in the US we seem to have a good better best thing going on or at least a two tier setup for many things. Examples....how many people would pay Lexus prices for a Toyota equipped the same exact way? Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infinity, Chevy vs Cadillac, Ford vs Lincoln etc. Used to be Grand Seiko watches still just seiko in bigger letters and Grand Seiko in smaller letters, but now that changed. Rolex vs Tudor. It seems people have an image in their head of what a brand means and it's hard to change it.
 
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onion, I get your point. I just struggle with it personally. I could maybe see this from a resale perspective in a car. Two nearly identical cars, one Lexus one Toyota, the Lexus will sell for more used. But that's likely a function of it costing more new. Maybe I'm just too much of a nerd. I have knives much nicer than the Maxamet Native, but I still show it off glowingly.

The Slysz Bowie is a good example of this, I think. People complained about the price, but if you look at it objectively it seems like a bargain. Expensive, but still a bargain for what it is.

I drove Land Rovers for years (still have an older one). But when I came time to get a new 4x4I got a 4Runner. Didn't matter to me that it said Toyota on it rather than Lexus, Land Rover, or something else. It had what I wanted and it appealed to me.

EDIT: Just want to clarify, I'm not driving an $80K Range Rover. When I say Land Rover, I mean the old style boxy ones that I buy very used. Same for my 4Runner.
 
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I myself can't really afford to be a brand snob, but I do try to buy the best quality item I can afford. With a lot of things there is a point of diminishing return. Knives included. I'm also old school and try to buy things made here when I can. Everyone has their mental hurdles that keep them from buying something. Sometimes it's price, sometimes it's country of origin, sometimes it's brand image or stigma. We humans are a complicated bunch. Haha
 
RipD said:
I don't want to get into price increases - there's already a thread on that.

There seems to be resistances from some to Spyderco knives being "expensive." This is probably true for other brands as well, but I see it come up a lot with Spyderco. I see statements like "I would never pay that much for a a Spyderco" or "I could get a mid-tech for that amount."

Let's say there's a U.S. made mid-tech knife with Ti sculpted scales, M390 steel, great blade, great grind, great action. Looks unique and fits great in most hands, good in pocket. Fit and finish are exceptional.

Now let's say the average knife nut would agree it's a $400 knife knife based on materials, machining, and fit/finish. Or imagine whatever you would expect a $400 knife to look like.

Now imagine that knife is U.S. made Spydie. Should the price automatically be lower? Why is the knife value not the same regardless of maker? I tend to lean the other way and put more value on a maker than I know will be able to service the knife and will have parts available.

Am I missing something? Am I an outlier in thinking that ongoing service and parts have value?

(Note that I have a couple of mid-techs now from a maker who seems to have disappeared. Good knives, but I'll likely never get the service I expected and am on my own to find parts.)
Click to expand...

It is likely partially because most Spydercos are not high end titanium framelocks. Those that are tend to be made in taichung and people have less problem paying that hypothetical $400 for these knives.

The ones they seem to complain more about are knives like the pm2 or shaman which come with “only” s30v, g10 and a couple steel liners. They often don’t think that part of what makes a Spydie expensive is the great attention to detail manufacturing them. Usually when I get a Spydie the fit and finish is perfect.
 
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Hi Rip,

I guess we could get into a deep philosophical discussion on the concept of perceived value, but like Politics, it's not likely to reach consensus. Perceived value of things becomes very personal. She's smart clean, healthy,. honest reliable, a good cook, but she's not pretty. So the pretty one goes to the dance, even if she's not clean, not honest, etc. Perceived values are most often based on many things beside rational thought.

In knives, many have likes and dislikes that influence their choices. One could argue lock types for example. "I like framelocks"....or "I don't like framelocks". I like ZT....or I don't like....etc. Mostly it's ignorance of all of the information.

We had a forumite on one of our forums that was trying to compare our Chinese made knives. The Tenacious and the Efficient were $50 and the Polestar and Alcyone were $80. He felt that the Polestar and Alcyone were overpriced. When I explained that the Tenacious and Efficient were made with Chinese 8Cr steel and the Polestar and Alcyone were made with US BD1 steel which cost more to make so they cost more to buy. He had a hard time grasping the difference. all were G-10 all were stainless all were linerlocks, they are all were about the same size, the US steel versions shouldn't be in with the others. Perceived value. And that doesn't take into account design (highly critical) quality, (often not seen), country of origin, etc.People will say to me "I can't see why blah, blah blah". My response is "Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means you can't see it".

sal
 
^I was reading that thread a month or so ago when I was debating on buying a Polestar. Interesting discussion.
 
Sal Glesser said:
5. Each country of origin has its own valuation of their "dollar" against the US dollar. This valuation often fluctuates, so costs may vary due to fluctuation. Knives made in China enjoy a 6/1 valuation. Many feel this is "cheating" since China is not a 3rd world country, but they have a 3rd world "dollar" valuation. Regardless, when we make knife in China it will "generally cost us 1/6th of what it will cost us to build the same knife in Europe or Japan. Of course there are difference in steel, steel quality and other materials.

sal
Click to expand...

Sal I have seen you repeat this line of thinking over and over through the years and you are wrong. Currency exchange rate of YMB to USD is about 6to 1 but Japanese Yen to Usd is 110 to 1, how do you explain that.

Maybe the Chinese made knives are cheaper because labor and machinery cost are much much lower in China VS Japan, same goes for tax, rent and other fixed cost as well as shipping cost. China has also became the world's manufacture with a huge diversified and very competitive supply chain. These are all factors of why cost is cheaper in China, and it has nothing to do with the exchange rate.
 
Thanks again, Sal. Appreciate your opinions and sharing your perspective and info about the company.
 
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