help me with a Loveless knife

[knifemullet]

So cleaning is not good? I have no problem not doing the cleaning, it's looks fine to me as it is. I'm confused???

 

[Ellis]

leave it alone,you can oil it,clean with ren wax or simichrome but do not let anyone but the maker buff or alter the finish in any way or it hurts resale value.
I buy tarnished Loveless knives all of the time
Dave

 

[psycho78]

Think about it....the knife has been used by your friend, and the little blemishes, scratches, tarnish etc kind of tell his story. Shame to get rid of that history.

 

[Murray White]

I think Dave, STeven and I are all on the same page. A phone call to the Loveless shop with an explanation re how the knife came into your possession would likely elicit a "send it right over and we will have it done up smartly for you and quickly". I think the Loveless shop would be thrilled to hear about this story and be extremely happy and grateful to make the piece into a knife that the owner will be proud to display.

 

[Kohai999]

I think Dave, STeven and I are all on the same page. A phone call to the Loveless shop with an explanation re how the knife came into your possession would likely elicit a "send it right over and we will have it done up smartly for you and quickly". I think the Loveless shop would be thrilled to hear about this story and be extremely happy and grateful to make the piece into a knife that the owner will be proud to display.

:thumbup:

Not much more to say than that!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Will Leavitt]

Mullet, you're running into the crossfire of the 2 camps in custom knives "that's a Loveless, it should be restored and placed where people can appreciate the skill of the maker" vs "that's a Loveless, I'm going to carry and use it so people can appreciate the skill of the maker." Neither group is right or wrong and they both love custom knives equally.

I would err on the side of not messing it up but that's me. I would cut some rope and stuff before sending it off though

 

[Michael Lovett]

I agree. the Knife looks fine. I wouldn't have anything done to it if I were you. If you do call the Loveless Shop, don't mention that you are thinking about selling it.

Dave, I'm a little shocked that you of all people would say that!

But I will keep my mouth shut. I will give you more respect than you just gave me.

On a side note, not every one sees their Loveless as a uber collectible- let's see how much we can get for it. There are still those that appreciate them for the very fine TOOL they are. And that is just what they are. Not a work of Art. But a tool to be used. That my friends is per Bob Loveless.

Same for fine guns, or even watches. I wear several nice watches. Today, It's a short run Panerai. Why, because it is highly collectible? NO! Because it's a fine watch and I can see the dial! If it gets scratched, I can take care of that too. I don't know about Panerai, buy I do a hell of a lot better at refinishing than the Rolex service center in NY does. A LOT better. You see. Thats the trick. You have to know how to refinish in such a way that not even the manufacturer can tell it has ever been done. To do that, you have to know every step of how it is originally done by the Maker . . To to be able to put it back brand new, or anywhere in between.

But trust me on this one. I'm already sorry I offer any info at all. Especially on Blade Forums. Once again.

I will tell you this. See a lot of refinised knives at shows. Yes even on the big name dealers tables. (and sights) Most are hideous. Wouldn't it be great if some one was hell bent on having it done, that the proper respect was shown the Knife and the job done correctly rather than another fine knife ruined for all time. All in the name of greed?



M. Lovett

 

[Ellis]

Nothing personal, just doing my job.
Dave

 

[Ellis]

I don't care if it is a Loveless,Moran,Scagel or Shmagel, if it is a collectible, it is best left in original condition.
Dave

 

[Michael Lovett]

I agree. However, not all knives are original. For instance a customer contacted me with a problem. He had damaged the tip, (read broken) of his knife. It couldn't be returned to the shop of one reason or another. ( His business),Now this knife was not being resold. It was his # 1 favorite, hunting knife. It had been so for many years. He was sick! He brought the knife to me and I repaired the break. The Knife was useless as it was. Collector value had no bearing on this knife as it was going to his son at his death. The important thing to him was that he be able to use it, and that his Son one day could continue to use it. He can now once again enjoy his hunting companion.

I will not do things like Chang parts on knives. Such as handles, or guards. I remember one set in particular that had long bolsters that were not built in the Loveless Shop. The blades were original Loveless, but the handles and guards were not. I have seen quite a few re-handled Loveless knives the last few years. Mostly Micarta changed out for stag, Ivory, Mammoth. All to sell for more profit. What stunned me is that the long bolster set was obviously not done in the Loveless Shop. It stuck out liked a sore thumb. One could tell instantly just about who did the work. Yet a very well known collector/dealer sold the set as original. He did, much to his credit, make the transaction right. I'm still shocked that such a well known expert didn't catch such an obvious and poor shot at faking a rare set. It took me only one or two seconds looking at a pic of them to call foul. The Loveless Shop had no problem catching it instantly. Bob, Jim and I all feel that they came from the same Makers Shop.

You see. I have a Job too! And part of that job is to know what is done on a Loveless Knife. How it is done, and why it is done. It is my job to know every single step in the making of a Loveless Knife. There is not one square inch of a Loveless Knife that isn't done the way it is for a reason. And it's usually a very good and exact reason. I have never met a single maker out side of the Loveless shop that understand why they do it the way they do.They get parts of it, but never the entire concept. (Except SR Johnson, and he worked there. But even he has changed them to suit what he does. ) A Loveless is such elegance in form and function.
The fact that I do get the Why, is why I make the Loveless Connection Knives. And why Bob and Jim are pleased with what I do. In fact I'm making one for Jim this week!

In closing, let me say that Dave's' advice is sound. I will not touch a Loveless to repair it unless the customer has already contacted the Loveless shop, and lastly I have made the customer fully aware that any work on the Knife can and will lower it's value on the collectors market. Only then do I ask the customer to send in the Knife to evaluate. Most, I turn down.

M. Lovett

 

[knifemullet]

Sorry for the hassle I appear to have caused. It appears the experts think what is best for my buddy's knife is to not clean it, which is what I will do. I told my wife I was gonna keep it and get a display case/frame made for it, no argument.

One last thing, the sheath, is that original to the knife, there seemed to be debate about that due to the irregular thread pattern? Just wondering for my info: If it is not, I would make the display just for the knife.

Thanks again all!!!!!

 

[peterinct]

Knifemullet - you are a VERY fortunate man to have the knife. I think you have gotten good information and only you can decide what is the best course of action in your best interest.

Have you tried just cleaning it with a bit of mineral oil? You said it was in the sheath, and some of the marks on the blade may just be from the leather over time.

Putting some mineral oil on it is no risk and you may want to try that before taking any other action.

Peter

 

[Lorien]

Sorry for the hassle I appear to have caused. It appears the experts think what is best for my buddy's knife is to not clean it, which is what I will do. I told my wife I was gonna keep it and get a display case/frame made for it, no argument.

One last thing, the sheath, is that original to the knife, there seemed to be debate about that due to the irregular thread pattern? Just wondering for my info: If it is not, I would make the display just for the knife.

Thanks again all!!!!!

Sweet! An absolutely beautiful conclusion to the story:thumbup: You're a good man!

I'm not an expert, but I have the impression that the sheath is the one made for the knife.

 

[Kevin Jones]

knifemullet, I wouldn't worry about causing a hassle here. There are many opinions and often opinions vary even among experts. We learn from it all.

Since we have experts following this thread I a have a couple questions?

First, what is the discoloration in the racasso/guard area?

And second, since we have had values of $2500 to $6000 stated here, what would a knowledgeable dealer most likely pay for this knife.

 

[Kohai999]

knifemullet, I wouldn't worry about causing a hassle here. There are many opinions and often opinions vary even among experts. We learn from it all.

Since we have experts following this thread I a have a couple questions?

First, what is the discoloration in the racasso/guard area?

The discoloration is the acid from the leather reacting with the silver solder that joins the guard to the ricasso, and the nickel silver or brass of the guard itself. I lean towards nickel silver because I don't see any verdigris.

I recommend Flitz or an even less abrasive product called Noxon that is available at Tru-Value hardware stores, and online for removing this discoloration....imo, Simichrome is too abrasive.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Kevin Jones]

The discoloration is the acid from the leather reacting with the silver solder that joins the guard to the ricasso, and the nickel silver or brass of the guard itself. I lean towards nickel silver because I don't see any verdigris.

I recommend Flitz or an even less abrasive product called Noxon that is available at Tru-Value hardware stores, and online for removing this discoloration....imo, Simichrome is too abrasive.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I thought it was solder. The excess just looks a little sloppy, especially on a knife of this value.

 

[Kohai999]

I thought it was solder. The excess just looks a little sloppy, especially on a knife of this value.

You are comparing a knife made in the mid to late '60's to current work. Make no mistake, the earlier Loveless knives are not the finely executed work done currently. Still some of the best stock removal stuff available at the time.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Michael Lovett]

I thought it was solder. The excess just looks a little sloppy, especially on a knife of this value.

Try to remember, Bob made this knife as a tool. Not as a collector piece. It was rare back in the day that a Guard be soldered. Randal, Loveless, and a few others did it to keep fluids out of the guard joint area when field dressing game animals. It worked very well. I have seen many older knives rusted out under the guards and forward part of the handles caused by the body fluids from game animals, and meat getting under the scales . It looks terrible. This is one reason I dislike the solder less guards so in vogue today. They are just that. Guards without Solder. No matter how cool Solder less sounds. It is just a very important step skipped. (It is almost impossible to blend with a satin finished blade and guard.) Also remember this wasn't a high dollar knife when it was made. Collectors have made them uber expensive. Not RW Loveless.

The discoloration you speak of is of two types. The first is the obvious difference in color of solder and steel. For the era this knife was made, this is a very nice solder joint. You have to remember, when new, the solder joint would have been highly polished. This would have made the color of the two different metals match very well. And can again as Steven mentioned. Just a little Flitz or other high quality polish. But wouldn't this be to an extent refinishing -but not by Loveless if taken to the full extent? I don't draw the line there, but some will.

Now lets look at the blade in the enlarged Pic. First notice the diagonal lines in the blade. The ones running this way //////////. This was done by a very low RPM buffer, with a contaminated wheel. How do I know this? That's my JOB to know. Now notice the Logo. You will see the letters are surrounded by a different color once again. This is from the back ground, or blade once having a high polish, while the letter area was rubbed with either a very fine grit aluminum oxide paper, fine rubber abrasive, or something similar. So someone has at one time already tried to refinish this Loveless Knife. Exactly the type of thing I was talking about. This was NOT Done by the Loveless Shop. It looks bad. There is nothing original about the scratches, and they were not put there by use. They are both even in length, and spacing. A very strong indication of how it was done. This is the type of thing I would like to see avoided. It does already detract from the value. And yes, it can be made right in the Loveless Shop.

The other discoloration in the guard Blade area is from Solder out gassing from the flux. This is VERY common. It has been the bane of makers for a very long time. Steve Johnson and I are working on a cure for this for all Makers. When we are satisfied with our results,we will let the other Makers know our findings, and our method. This needs to be shared with all Makers. So far we are getting very positive results.

I see the Knife as a very nice old Knife. One to be proud of. I would just carry it and use it. But thats' just me.


Mike

 

[Kohai999]

I don't care if it is a Loveless,Moran,Scagel or Shmagel, if it is a collectible, it is best left in original condition.
Dave

I think that we may have answered the question for Knifemullet, but there is a sticking point for those of us interested in such things, and as it is relevant to this very discussion, am not starting a new thread

For those very few of you who don't know Dave Ellis, here is one of his websites:

http://www.exquisiteknives.com/about.php

Key in on the fact that Dave is an ABS Mastersmith, and take some time to review the website....he is also an EXTREMELY successful knife dealer....and a good friend of mine.

That said, "experts" can disagree. I have not sold one small iota of the knives that Dave Ellis has, but have sold thousands of knives...including knives that I have done work on, and that other people have as well, always with full disclosure, and have not have any refused because of this.

There are the purists(Dave Ellis) and there are the "others". In SOME art collecting fields, for a piece to have come from a particular collector's collection and be so marked or known brings a premium. Larry Fuegen told me about one such collector in the Western art arena, another that comes to mind is the Nihonto collection of Walter Compton. In the case of the Western art collector, he had a stamp made up, and permanently marked all of the pieces in his collection.

What constitutes major re-working or alteration of a knife is really up for discussion. Antique pocketknife collectors get rather rabid about this. Any purposeful attempt at fraud should be viewed by the community as attempted or actual theft, depending at what point in a transaction or representation it occurs....and is just a crappy way to do business.

Decisions on refinishing or alteration are best left to the experienced collector who can realize the full ramifications of the actions taken, and should always be documented.

There are those who say that any art should be left in original condition, but there are others who disagree, and these people are all experts.....an example might be the refinishing of a painting that was hung in a poorly ventilated smoky room, thusly affecting the ACTUAL original finish.....which is a similar analogy to what Lovett was discussing above...wrt the current finish of the knife.....obviously a trip to the Loveless shop would be optimal, and with documentation might result in what, perhaps at $500-$1000 penalty, but could possibly bring much satisfaction to the owner.....a Lovett overhaul....maybe another few hundred dollar ding.....with documentation, maybe/maybe not......I WOULD like to hear Dave's thoughts on this...but these are mine.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Michael Lovett]

I think that a lot of us get our opinions from past experiences . Many of us attended Gun Shows to see knives for years before there were Knife shows. A lot of what we know about collecting came from such an environment. In the Gun world, any attempt to restore an older gun usually drops its value. But it must be remembered that guns are mostly a manufactured item.

Hand Made Knives are slowly becoming accepted as an art form. I have long held that this is far over due. Since Knives were one of, if not our first tools, embellishment on them is very old indeed. This in my mind makes them one of the oldest art forms. But this respect hasn't for the most part been given. I know that I haven't been allowed to display at several art shows as Knives are weapons. All Knives are weapons. Or so I'm told by these people.

But they are being recognized more and more as objects of art. This is a confusing time for many of us. In the collecting world of fine art and fine objects, to restore something correctly and skillfully is a plus. Not a minus. Top Museums keep top artisans on staff who's only job is restoration of fine pieces. Paintings, sculptures. Even fine and valuable porcelains. You even see this on Antique Road Show. They will give a value as is. What the value would be undamaged, and what the value would be if properly restored. The value is always higher than as damaged.

Now they are talking about an expert at restoration. Not the original Artist. Imagine if a painting would be taken to Rembrandt.. Who would say that they should not touch their own work. It would take a very snobbish person indeed to take it upon them self to assume to know more than the Artist. Who would tell the artist that he is unqualified to work on his own creation.

For the original Artist to work on the creation, even years later adds what is often called prominence. It adds to the documentation. It adds to the story. It ADDS Value. It does not detract from it. Especially when the work has been damaged by out side influences.

I have not once, not twice, but Many times at shows,seen dealers beat a customer down on price who had something to sell by telling them that what they had for sell wasn't worth as much because something had been added, or restored. Yet the dealer will instantly kick the price up to the first person that looks at the item. Not to the untouched price of the piece, but to higher than original. Using words like restored. Customized. One of a kind. So no. I don't buy this argument. It is full of holes.

I don't care who you are. Your not going to sit here and tell me that Loveless working on a Loveless will lower the value of a Loveless. And yes I know who Dave Ellis is. And I realize that Bob Loveless, Jim Merritt, and myself have no where his experience. Bob has been at this for only 55 years. Jim only a little over 45. And me, only 35. (Making. Ive been collecting, buying, and selling for a hell of a lot longer.) So I guess you could say that we have no experience. None of us hold the title of MS in the ABS. None of us are knife dealers.

By the way, MS is a test. Not a title. It doesn't mean Master Knife Maker. Bob and Jim are Master Knife Makers.

AS suggested, I just went to Dave's site. Very Nice. Did any one see the fantastic older Loveless Boot Knife. In all these years, the Brass of the guard, and the bolts have never tarnished. Amazing. I wish all Knives could stand the test of time like that. I have no doubt that they have never been touched.

Lets not confuse a clean up with a rebuild! Even a polish with Flitz is a refinish. It's simply a point of degree. Of course this is just my opinion.

I would have a hard time believing that David would refuse to repair or clean up one of the knives he has made for a customer that got damaged in use on the grounds that it might hurt the value. That would be a very poor excuse to not have a warranty on your knives indeed! I have a very strong warranty on my knives. As does the Loveless Shop.

Good day.

M. Lovett