help me with a Loveless knife

[Ellis]

Guess I can't remain silent. I will repeat, any collectible (read collectible) refinished by someone other than the original maker is a redone piece.In the Gun World,Knife World and collectible's World.
That said if one owns's something it is theirs to do what they wish with.
My only point was on the resale side (not the using side or the carrying side)the price will be affected.
Now as for expertise, I do appreciate the kind words , I never claimed to know it all, just wanted to answer a simple question and thought that perhaps the owner of said knife would appreciate knowing before he turned a $4000 piece into a lesser valued,prettier piece.
Nothing personal towards anyone, nothing vindictive meant at all, trying to be helpful so don't kill the messenger.
Don't hate the player...hate the game.
Dave

Oh,in my opinion Simichrome and Ren wax are not refinishers although they do refresh and protect

 

[Kevin Jones]

By the way, MS is a test. Not a title. It doesn't mean Master Knife Maker. Bob and Jim are Master Knife Makers.
M. Lovett

Mike just for the record, ABS MS/Mastersmith is not a test. It's a progressive or stepped certification that one has to pass a series of test to achieve.

 

[Michael Lovett]

Excuse me. A series of test. I stand corrected.

 

[Michael Lovett]

Guess I can't remain silent. I will repeat, any collectible (read collectible) refinished by someone other than the original maker is a redone piece.In the Gun World,Knife World and collectible's World.
That said if one owns's something it is theirs to do what they wish with.
My only point was on the resale side (not the using side or the carrying side)the price will be affected.
Now as for expertise, I do appreciate the kind words , I never claimed to know it all, just wanted to answer a simple question and thought that perhaps the owner of said knife would appreciate knowing before he turned a $4000 piece into a lesser valued,prettier piece.
Nothing personal towards anyone, nothing vindictive meant at all, trying to be helpful so don't kill the messenger.
Don't hate the player...hate the game.
Dave

Oh,in my opinion Simichrome and Ren wax are not refinishers although they do refresh and protect

Other than the original Maker. I'm glad to see this re-thought. I would hate to hear what Bob would have to say if ANY Dealer called him and told him he had no business working on his own Knives! And believe me. I would hear about it in Spades! I sure wouldn't want to be the Dealer foolish enough to make that call.:foot: But I would get a kick at listening in on the conversation. All I would need would be ear plugs!

 

[peterinct]

For the original Artist to work on the creation, even years later adds what is often called prominence. It adds to the documentation. It adds to the story. It ADDS Value. It does not detract from it. Especially when the work has been damaged by out side influences.

M. Lovett

Mr. Lovett - I agree with most of what you say....however, with due respect, I believe the word you refer to is "provenance". What provenance does is to authenticate the origin/history of an item.

You are a prominant knifemaker in the world of custom knives

I also agree that using Flitz, or something similar is not refinishing an item, but in the case of metals such as brass, copper, or bronze, cleaning could decimate the value.

It's all good!

Peter

 

[Kohai999]

I also agree that using Flitz, or something similar is not refinishing an item, but in the case of metals such as brass, copper, or bronze, cleaning could decimate the value.


Peter

BULLCRAP!

It is the RESPONSIBILITY of the knife owner to maintain his gear. If you use it, you don't put it away wet, and wait for it to rust, right? If the brass, copper or bronze is developing a funky looking patina, it is time to polish it up.....using an agent to assist in this is desirable. If unused, and simply appreciated, the amount of time and effort expended to maintain the gear should be lessened.

You don't just throw a knife into whatever, and expect it to be just fine. Carbon steel knives with fine finishes specifically demand maintenance, and it can be tricky to find the perfect balance. I store my knives in a Bill's case, and the carbon blades get treated with Brownell's Gunwrap, which is a VCI paper, however the vapor is unfriendly to nickel based materials and accelerates patina, so a regular polishing with Flitz or Noxon is required, lest you get pitting in the nickel.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[peterinct]

BULLCRAP!

It is the RESPONSIBILITY of the knife owner to maintain his gear. If you use it, you don't put it away wet, and wait for it to rust, right? If the brass, copper or bronze is developing a funky looking patina, it is time to polish it up.....using an agent to assist in this is desirable. If unused, and simply appreciated, the amount of time and effort expended to maintain the gear should be lessened.

You don't just throw a knife into whatever, and expect it to be just fine. Carbon steel knives with fine finishes specifically demand maintenance, and it can be tricky to find the perfect balance. I store my knives in a Bill's case, and the carbon blades get treated with Brownell's Gunwrap, which is a VCI paper, however the vapor is unfriendly to nickel based materials and accelerates patina, so a regular polishing with Flitz or Noxon is required, lest you get pitting in the nickel.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

You took what I said OUT of context and applied it to those metals on knives. What you say IS valid.

HOWEVER....if you had an antique item (NOT A KNIFE) say perhaps a Tiffany lamp for discussion purposes that has developed a "patina", cleaning it would be a HUGE mistake.

I suppose your NEXT remark will be that THIS is a CUSTOM KNIFE forum and what you stated DOES apply to knives. The point I was attempting to make is what Dave Ellis stated....The original finish should be preserved whenever possible. It applies to most antiques and collectibles.

Peter

 

[Kohai999]

You took what I said OUT of context and applied it to those metals on knives. What you say IS valid.

HOWEVER....if you had an antique item (NOT A KNIFE) say perhaps a Tiffany lamp for discussion purposes that has developed a "patina", cleaning it would be a HUGE mistake.

I suppose your NEXT remark will be that THIS is a CUSTOM KNIFE forum and what you stated DOES apply to knives. The point I was attempting to make is what Dave Ellis stated....The original finish should be preserved whenever possible. It applies to most antiques and collectibles.

Peter

Ok, sorry, I DID think you were talking about knives.

Of course in sculpture or similar, you would not simply just polish the item until bright....studios spend a lot of time and effort creating patina for stuff like this...it is however, apples and oranges in this context, thus the confusion.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[ADD]

Interesting read.

It was my understanding that most anything done to an older collectible knife, short of gentle rub with a soft cloth and some mineral oil (even the use of this on stag is deemed a no-no by some) can and will affect value.

Also, anything done beyond that by someone other than the original maker (regardless of the relationship) is not without consequence as well.

Now, hypothetically, where it may get interesting is if it is an older knife, specific to a maker (i.e.not a Randall knife from the Randall shop , for example) from another era and the original maker, in this case Bob Loveless himself, refinishes the knife.

At first blush it may seem a non issue.

But what if the maker is now using techniques, tools, methods, materials not available to him a generation or two ago to alter the knife closer to its original state?
Even the maker's skill set could have improved or diminished.

Would the example still be a truly represent his work from that time?
The comments about the quality of the solder bead, fit/finish, and sheath work may bare this out...

Just some random thoughts from a layman.

 

[Michael Lovett]

Steven, get away from that Gun wrap. It's made to protect blued finishes. It is very old tech. Pick up a bottle of FP-10 from shooters choice. It works very well. Not to mention it has the highest salt spray index on the market. It is the only lubricant that actually penetrates metal on a molecular level, and was developed specifically for firearms and cutlery. They carry it here at Sportsman warehouse. Pyramyd Air also carries it. Yeah, I know. The spelling. But it is the way they spell it.

I think most of the argument here is over our terms being different. When I talk about re-finish, I am not talking about anything as deep as what apparently you guys are thinking.

For instance, Brass. Collectors and Dealers hate it. Why? Maintenance. Did you know that if you leave it alone, it will in time will take on blue, red, and green hue. I'm not talking about corrosion, It will look somewhat like polished ti. In another year it will take on a very beautiful cracked ice appearance. Sometimes called frosting. Looks a little like the mineral Mica. Once this surface finish has occurred, it will stay that way. You see it on old brass fittings on muzzle loaders. It is considered a thing of beauty. I have seen it in many museums. Not once have I ever seen it on a knife at a show. People simply cannot leave it alone to reach its natural beauty. A real shame. So yes. Simi Chrome and flitz can and do alter the finish. Very much in a way, a re-finish. Not only this, but simi chrome although claiming it has no abrasives, will scratch soft materials like NS. Brass and Gold.

The type of cloth used to polish is also important. I've seen people at shows use paper towels. A big No-No. Most are far too abrasive.

To me, a re-finish is mostly a touch up. Not even what some dealers cal a fluff and buff. It alters very little.

As to never touching a knife by a noted collectible maker, allow me to give one instance where it saved the day.

At a show I was attending, a well know deader has a beautiful Loveless hunter that he had just received. While showing it to a customer, it's guard was clanked against another Knifes guard. Now the Loveless Shop these days uses a special belt with a blend of lubricants that they mix to put the finish on the sides of the knife handle and guard. It gives a very velvety soft finish with a faint satin finish to the guard and bolts. The contact marred the finish. The dealer had the knife there for sale. He was a little more than un-happy. What to do. Spend the money, and time to send it back in? How long would it be gone. Shipping both ways., Insurance. . = ouch! and the customer was on the way to the show.

Some one told him that Lovett was at the show and could probably fix it on the spot. A A knife Supplier was there that had the proper cloth abrasive with the proper micron grit that I knew would give the correct finish. It took me all of 1 minute. When I carried it back to the Dealer, the first thing he did was look at both sides. Then again under a Loop. Then he ask-Which side was it? I can't remember he said. Which side looks redone I ask. I can't tell he says. Thats what I want to hear I say. What do I owe you Mr. Lovett? Not a thing. Glad I could help.

the Dealer was relieved. The Customer was happy. All was disclosed. All was good. When I returned home form the Show, I called the Loveless Shop and gave them the number on the knife and told them exactly what I did. All that was said was yep! That's all you gotta do!

To me, thats a good day.

The Customer was happy. The Dealer was happy. The Loveless Shop was happy, and I was happy to both help them out, and keep a Loveless Knife looking the way it was intended. So you will have to please over look my arrogance of not caring whether there might be someone here on BF who disapproves. I don't' tell any one what to buy, what to sell. How much to pay, How much to spend. Nor do I tell anyone what to collect. Nor how to invest. These things are not my business. Nor are they any of my business. Collectors and especially Dealers Know far more about such things. Or so they tell any one who will listen. I just wish less Collectors and Dealers thought they were Knife Makers. Please stop trying to tell us how to do our work. We would never tell you how to do yours.

 

[Chefget]

Michael....you're OK, and a pleasure to read! :thumbup:



-Michael

 

[Lorien]

^ +1

 

[irbailey]

I find it hard to believe the fuss some people make over a knife (to clean or not to clean, etc)
If I'd just picked up a genuine Loveless, I'd know exactly what to do with it - I'd make up a lefty sheath for it and use it every day.
This may sound like madness to the collecting fraternity, but when I collected militaria, I soon found that owning things that don't get used soon became very boring. The pleasure was wanting rather than owning.
This knife was made to be used, and thats how I'd get my enjoyment from it.
Unfortunatly I don't have the money, but if I did, I can assure you I'd be getting my moneys worth out of a 4" drop point with green micarta.(no harm in dreaming!)
I'm pretty sure the world won't end due to a knife getting used. Whatever the price. Lifes far too short to be worrying about a few scratches, or indeed how to get rid of them. Lighten up and enjoy it!!

Ian

 

[brightred]

For instance, Brass. Collectors and Dealers hate it. Why? Maintenance. Did you know that if you leave it alone, it will in time will take on blue, red, and green hue. I'm not talking about corrosion, It will look somewhat like polished ti. In another year it will take on a very beautiful cracked ice appearance. Sometimes called frosting. Looks a little like the mineral Mica. Once this surface finish has occurred, it will stay that way. You see it on old brass fittings on muzzle loaders. It is considered a thing of beauty.

mike,

when brass is properly cleaned (alcaline agent in ultrasonic cleaner, then isopropyl alcohol, then white spirit) it keeps it's golden colour more or less for several years as long as you don't touch it. it will tarnish a little bit, but not much. of course this method of cleaning is not applicable to knives, but as you speak of brass in general i thought i should mention this method.

i added three pictures of old clocks that have not been repaired for up to 30 years, and one picture of a clock after repair.

french travel clock from about 1890, before repair.

pendule neuchâteloise, 1840, striking mechanism, before repair.

vienna regulator, about 1900, before repair.

capucine, about 1830, after repair, nothing polished, just cleaned.

best regards,
hans

 

[peterinct]

For instance, Brass. Collectors and Dealers hate it. Why? Maintenance. Did you know that if you leave it alone, it will in time will take on blue, red, and green hue. I'm not talking about corrosion, It will look somewhat like polished ti. In another year it will take on a very beautiful cracked ice appearance. Sometimes called frosting. Looks a little like the mineral Mica. Once this surface finish has occurred, it will stay that way. You see it on old brass fittings on muzzle loaders. It is considered a thing of beauty. I have seen it in many museums. Not once have I ever seen it on a knife at a show. People simply cannot leave it alone to reach its natural beauty. A real shame. So yes. Simi Chrome and flitz can and do alter the finish. Very much in a way, a re-finish. Not only this, but simi chrome although claiming it has no abrasives, will scratch soft materials like NS. Brass and Gold.

The type of cloth used to polish is also important. I've seen people at shows use paper towels. A big No-No. Most are far too abrasive.

Excellent post Mr. Lovett. A LOT of good information. I have a couple of knives with brass bolsters, which I had kept untouched for many years, that developed the patina you describe. The key is keeping fingerprints off the brass.

I also learned decades ago how abrasive paper towels are from skiing. One swipe across the plastic lens of goggles scratches them severely. Napkins are the same. Like using wood chips!

Back to the original question, if the knife were mine, I think I would use it some, since it already is used, and then perhaps have the abrasive lines removed by the Loveless shop if that is an option.

Peter

 

[jdm61]

When I was in military school, we used to use Noxon when we wanted to get a brass belt bcucle super shiny. Brasso was what you normally used, but it would leave a very fine scratch pattern that would have to be dealt with by using a Cadie two sided jewelers rouge cloth. Noxon would also not remove the laquer from jacker buttons, which is the first thing we always did to belt buckles using Brasso and shirt cardboard.

 

[Kevin Jones]

The type of cloth used to polish is also important. I've seen people at shows use paper towels. A big No-No. Most are far too abrasive.

Paper towels are no different from cloth or even toilet tissue for that matter, some types are more or less abrasive than others. I have used paper towels many times to polish/clean knives without scratching. Even used them to polish expensive mirror finish black lacquer auto finishes without a problem. They work well as you can throw away and replace often as they become contaminated.
It all depends on which paper towels you use, same as with any other material.

The point I was attempting to make is what Dave Ellis stated....The original finish should be preserved whenever possible. It applies to most antiques and collectibles.
Peter

IMO, there's a big difference between maintaining a collectible and refinishing it. Semi-chrome, Ren Wax, Flitz are maintenance products used to "keep" a knife in it's original condition. I define "original condition" as the condition in which a knife left the maker's shop.
Some define original condition as condition it's currently in, with tarnish, patina, scratches or whatever. I guess it just depends on how much a purist you are.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

Even used them to polish expensive mirror finish black lacquer auto finishes without a problem.

Having done many black lacquer hand rubbed paint jobs on cars in the 80's , I can't believe that a paper towel wouldn't leave fine scratches. Paper towels attract dust , and will create a static electricity like effect with any dust on the surface and will pretty much rub it into the surface. I am talking about paint jobs with a 36" inch gloss with no clear coat.

What are your opinions on the 3m cloths that are pretty popular ? I use them on my reading classes and they remove smudge marks pretty well and after a year , no scratches.

 

[Samael]

I have used paper towels and toilet paper to clean my glasses, and I can tell you right now that you're pretty much guaranteed to end up with scratches all over the place. That's with polycarbonate lenses, which are a whole lot harder than brass. I don't think I'd ever let these things get anywhere near my brass.

John: Any suggestions where I could get the 3M cloths you refer to?

 

[Kevin Jones]

Having done many black lacquer hand rubbed paint jobs on cars in the 80's , I can't believe that a paper towel wouldn't leave fine scratches. Paper towels attract dust , and will create a static electricity like effect with any dust on the surface and will pretty much rub it into the surface. I am talking about paint jobs with a 36" inch gloss with no clear coat.

What are your opinions on the 3m cloths that are pretty popular ? I use them on my reading classes and they remove smudge marks pretty well and after a year , no scratches.

Hi John.
I'm not talking about "dry polishing", as I wouldn't do that with any material. As it would be the equivalent of use fine sandpaper. I'm speaking of hand polishing/cleaning using "Meguiar's" finish products on pre-clearcoat finishes on early Corvettes.
I like the 3m cloths though a little expensive.

brightred, thanks for sharing the clock photos.