Help on which equipment is needed - would like to start making knives.

[12345678910]

Have a look at this - links to the sears grinder are included too.



I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions. I'm sure it will help you too.

The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V15

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-Website

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:
See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, the Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. Google books thread

Bob Engnath Patterns compiled into a PDF


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quenchl.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.

Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.

Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use O1, A2, D2, CM154, ATS34, s30v, 440C, plus many others.

If you want to heat treat yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel, 1070, 1080, 1084.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking and is well suited for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

This PDF brochure gives a good overview
http://www.buckknives.com/resources/pdf/Paul_Bos_Brochure.pdf

http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Grinder / Tools

In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential .

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788837
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=726309



Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here


V15 Added Craftsman speed modification link

 

[jawilder]

That is true, you can't do hollow grinds with a 2x42

 

[J. Hoffman]

When you do the 'hole hopping' don't use the grinder to smooth it out. Use files by draw filing. Search the forum for how to draw file, it works really good for me.

 

[duffy99]

you can do hollow grinds with a jig, focus on making a knife of any kind first , people made knives 1000's of years ago with less then you already have.




Read $50 knife shop , Loveless book there all available here in pdf form and a lot more. I made knives with a hacksaw , files and sandpaper. Or you could just buy a knife and say you made it, one of mine so it looks like an authentic beginner knife.

 

[sunshadow]

I did search sears.

I also searched this forum, nothing pertaining to my original question of my preferences of power tooling. Nothing I could find anyway.

I'm being told the 2x42 is unable to make hollow grinds, any truth to this?

Don't worry about hollow grinds yet, you are a long way from being *THERE*, trust me. Fill in your profile, for all I know you could be my next door neighbor, or live down the street from someone who is a much better smith than I am who would invite you over and give you lessons, but right now you have no known city so you could be in China for all we know. Read the post from "The Count" it has a lot of good advice, read the stickies

-Page

 

[blandies]

One thing I forgot to ask, why is the sears 2x42 better than my ryobi belt sander I already have?

Seems like mine would be a little better since it's bigger? Just trying to save money for other tools if I don't need the 2x42. Can the Ryobi do just as well?

 

[wolffbite]

One thing I forgot to ask, why is the sears 2x42 better than my ryobi belt sander I already have?

Seems like mine would be a little better since it's bigger? Just trying to save money for other tools if I don't need the 2x42. Can the Ryobi do just as well?

Looks like your ryobi is a 4x36 judging by the link you posted. That belt size really only lends itself to Aluminum Oxide belts, which are for the most part useless for any sort of metal grinding (will work but you will chew through belts like nothing else). I tried making my first 2 knives with a 4x36, and went through 4 belts each knife just on profiling alone... let alone grinding bevels.

Buying the 2x42 will save you loads of cash in belts later on, and will give you a far greater variety of belts to use for knife making (all of which are made for metal grinding specifically which will last longer than any cheap A/O belt). It will also be easier to grind straight bevels on a 2x42... it's also much more customizable (a quick forum search will show you the various mods that make it a viable knife-making grinder)

So yes while you "can" make knives with it... from my experience it is really not worth it to try and force a machine to do what it isn't made to do.

 

[blandies]

Ah, makes sense. 2x42 it is, I'm heading to Sears next week to see if they have one in stock.

The belts I should be using on my soon to be 2x42 I should get from trugrit.com correct? Someone posted the link earlier. Just confirming this so I don't order the wrong belt(s).
They have different types too.

 

[duffy99]

Ah, makes sense. 2x42 it is, I'm heading to Sears next week to see if they have one in stock.

The belts I should be using on my soon to be 2x42 I should get from trugrit.com correct? Someone posted the link earlier. Just confirming this so I don't order the wrong belt(s).
They have different types too.

Ya man , don't cheap out get some 60 grit ceramics for hogging steel and then get like 5 of each 80 ,120,240,400,600 Gator belts , there awesome to use . Get some AO belts for handles and shit too.50/120/200/400/600 . You can use 1x42 belts but it sucks, get the 2x42's supergrit.com has the belts that trugrit doesn't and you will have pretty much ever belt that a 2x72 guy would have minus the Blaze belt dammit. Read this about belt types Gator's are worth it though. you can even get some 8' discs in the micron's and cut them to size . I use the disc sometimes with a 80 grit to grind down stuff too. I haven't tried using it for finishing yet but I got the discs. I got a leather belt 2x42 , cork belts and scotchbrites too coming from supergrit. Google 500dollarknifeshop for youtube vids on mods or 2x42 mods or craftsman mods. There are 3 that you can do for under $10 to make your grinder way better, get a better platen , pyroceram is awesome but you can use ceramic tile all the info is here or a quick google . Then read all the info you can Wayne Goddards $50 knife shop , How to build knives by loveless . Find the Google books thread here and get like 10 books for free in pdf .

http://www.usaknifemaker.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=94_42&products_id=1393

 

[blandies]

Yikes, all those different grits really necessary for grinding knives? I don't have that much $$$ left after getting the 2x42 @ $4-5 per belt.

If I need them all I guess I'll have to bite the bullet, just seems like a lot at first I guess. I can understand a grit for chunking steel away & one for grinding regular edges....but why all the other grits?

 

[wolffbite]

Use abrasives as if they were free they say... and it's true. If you skimp on using fresh belts/paper your finishes will suffer. Everyone who has started off has probably realized it at some point (myself included). Seriously just save yourself the frustration of using worn abrasives haha

I wouldn't say you need ALL the above grits, but generally "doubling" grit size for finishing is the rule of thumb. Many people just belt finish up to 120 and leave the rest to hand sanding... which is what I do and it seems to work just fine for me.

 

[Futz Brown]

I'll tell you what I'm doing, and it's certainly something you can get going for waayy less than 900 bucks. I just completed my first knife the other day. Basically, as far as cutting out the steel, I'm using an angle grinder. Cutoff wheel for big pieces, then I use a grinding wheel to rough it out further. From there, I use sanding drums to finish that end of it. I've got a 3 inch, a 1 1/2 inch, and a 1/2 inch. For the smaller half inch stuff, I use a file and then just use to the drum to make sure it's straight and smooth. Then, and I just did this for the first time like yesterday, I'm using a harbor freight 1x30 belt grinder for the grinds. For my first go at grinding the knife on that start to finish, it came out OK. The main thing is good belts I've found out. I used 1080 steel and heat treated myself with just a torch, some canola oil, and an oven.

I spent money on a lot of shit I didn't need to start with, don't repeat my mistakes. It's not too hard to get going, and you've got enough tools that you could easily spend less than 100 dollars and be doing things pretty efficiently to start. I had started on other knives before, but the first one I completed I did in one night.

That's the condensed version of everything I know so far. If you want any specifics on my part time, minimum wage set up, shoot me an email.

 

[blandies]

A few updates---

I looked on both websites (trugrit & supergrit) and did not see any "gator" belts. I looked up gator on a search engine & found their site but you could not purchase online. I'm still unsure of where/which belts to get.

Which leads me into.... I picked up my new 2x42 today! Pretty excited to get it set up. I just need to figure out where to get my belts & which ones to get & I'm good to go.

I watched the 2x42 mod videos & will be doing the tile platen, tool rest cut, & removing side guard.
I would like to do the manual tracking knob but it seems really complicated to drill through a knob & get it all right. ..?

I would like to know what the ceramic tile platen does? What difference is the steel platen from the ceramic tile? Not sure what this effects.

Also should I keep the tool rest on or keep it off? I see numerous people having it both ways...which is best?
It also came with a small black metal piece...stop plate or something, do I need this?

 

[duffy99]

A few updates---

I looked on both websites (trugrit & supergrit) and did not see any "gator" belts. I looked up gator on a search engine & found their site but you could not purchase online. I'm still unsure of where/which belts to get.

Which leads me into.... I picked up my new 2x42 today! Pretty excited to get it set up. I just need to figure out where to get my belts & which ones to get & I'm good to go.

I watched the 2x42 mod videos & will be doing the tile platen, tool rest cut, & removing side guard.
I would like to do the manual tracking knob but it seems really complicated to drill through a knob & get it all right. ..?

I would like to know what the ceramic tile platen does? What difference is the steel platen from the ceramic tile? Not sure what this effects.

Also should I keep the tool rest on or keep it off? I see numerous people having it both ways...which is best?
It also came with a small black metal piece...stop plate or something, do I need this?

3M Trizact “Gator” Aluminum Oxide right on trugrit search by manufacturer

 

[duffy99]

A few updates---

I looked on both websites (trugrit & supergrit) and did not see any "gator" belts. I looked up gator on a search engine & found their site but you could not purchase online. I'm still unsure of where/which belts to get.

Which leads me into.... I picked up my new 2x42 today! Pretty excited to get it set up. I just need to figure out where to get my belts & which ones to get & I'm good to go.

I watched the 2x42 mod videos & will be doing the tile platen, tool rest cut, & removing side guard.
I would like to do the manual tracking knob but it seems really complicated to drill through a knob & get it all right. ..?

I would like to know what the ceramic tile platen does? What difference is the steel platen from the ceramic tile? Not sure what this effects.

Also should I keep the tool rest on or keep it off? I see numerous people having it both ways...which is best?
It also came with a small black metal piece...stop plate or something, do I need this?

I know what the difference between steel and ceramic and if you listened to the volume when you watched that video you would to , think about shit rubbing together, think about friction and what it produces ? Grab 2 things and rub them together for a minute and tell me what you find out .

 

[blandies]

Look sir, I don't appreciate the attitude. I'm 59 years old & am not very savvy with computers. I have been searching on here & google both before posting ANY of my questions. I never seem to find the answers I'm looking for exactly. I am new to forums so if I am doing something extremely wrong I am truly sorry, but there is no need for any of the sarcasm & attitude going on here. I do not intentionally look for handouts, I have been working hard trying to figure everything out whether you think so or not.

I DID listen to the video, I wasn't sure if the heat was the ONLY reason for the tile platen, it didn't seem to me like heat would be much a problem on a belt sander. I didn't know if there was another more sensible reason.

You have been bad-mouthing me on nearly all of my recent posts + my profile & it is uncalled for. Again I'm sorry if I come off as the type of person your viewing me as, but I assure you I DO use search engines & the blade forums search before posting anything.....I've heard enough from you to know what I should do. Maybe I need things simplified just a bit - keep in mind this is all foreign to me.....it will take time to sink in. Also when you said look for Gators, I thought that was a MFG not a name of a product under 3M.....which explains me not seeing it.

I'm trying.

As far as your posts & messages to me putting me down, it really needs to stop.

 

[ak-edge]

I highly recommend the "no weld grinder". You do end up spending some money, but, like in my case, the process taught me more about metal working than anything I had done before. And in turn taught me a lot about kifemaking. I built it slowly, in my spare time, and put together all the accessories. Finally, taught myself some basic welding, and finished it off. And it is one hell of a machine! I'll pst some pics...

 

[Brian Ayres]

Fuck , 3M Trizact “Gator” Aluminum Oxide right on trugrit , 1.85 seconds to locate clicked belts by manufacturer , that for 1x30 or 2x42 or whatever grinder you have or are getting , click add to cart is the first step of purchasing goods online. I hope your first knife is 100 times better then my first and I'll eat my words. I'll sell you a nice hunter made from stock removal with a 2x42 heat treated in a mini-forge I constructed by SEARCHING THE INTERWEBZ, I also made use of the info here and read books , watched dvd's and youtube video's . I spent 100 hours filing a knife with files only to scrap it cause it was junk a couple of times . Put some effort into this please , I don't know why I'm responding cause your to thick to understand the info being spoon fed to you. Maybe buy a knife kit and just assemble it , I did 5 of those before I bought a $30 file set and $20 worth of steel and went to work , you have to do to learn .

I know what the difference between steel and ceramic and if you listened to the volume when you watched that video you would to , think about shit rubbing together, think about friction and what it produces ? Grab 2 things and rub them together for a minute and tell me what you find out .

Seriously?

Why the attitude?

Do you realize you yourself have asked plenty of questions?? And, not followed the advice given? I mean really...
This forum has a a steady stream of newbies coming through which is why the Count posts his standard reply....if it bothers you answering the same question a million times, then don't.....Because it will happen...

There is no call to be abusive. In fact I believe an apology is in order....


Blandies,

As far as the reason for a ceramic platen. The main reason is the steel platen will eventually be worn away and will not maintain a flat surface...therefore making nice smooth repeatable grinds difficult...

As far as learning... Read the stickies Count provided... Use the search function.. If you don't find the esluts you want try using different words like grind instead of grinding....

Ask all the questions you need to... This attitude isn't typical of this forum and if it continues Bladsmith will put an end to it...

 

[12345678910]

Let’s answer some of your questions from this and other threads



Glass platen
The steel platen, especially on the small machines is thin stamped steel.
It flexes
Even on my 2x72 the thick steel platen has worn a dished hollow groove.
The woven cloth backing is somewhat abrasive & the ceramic is both much more smooth and wear resistant.

It is not a ceramic tile, it is “Pyroceram” – fireplace insert/BBQ/oven door glass.
It is more heat resistant than tempered safety glass.
Read this on how to install it.
Buy it there if you want to, but my local glass shops charge me half of that.
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=99_60&products_id=2030



Steel type?
That depends on your knife & where you will heat treat

You stated you will ship out for heat treat, & chose Aldo’s 1084 because it’s the cheapest.

The steel is the cheapest, but by picking an oil quenching steel, you are limited to fewer shops.
Peters does oil quench steels, but the minimum batch charge is high for only one knife.
Many more shops will do air hardening steels like ats34 and 154CM and CPM154 at a lower single piece rate.
I like precision ground steel .It’s flat and smooth and scale free. It cost’s more, but is much less work.
Maybe a local maker will HT with you.

Cart and Horse here
The steel has to match the purpose.
Before you buy steel – show us a drawing and template of what you are going to do.

After all your research and thought, what do you think it should be?
It’s easier for us to tell you if you are on the right track than to tell you everything you need to know.


How to post pics
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...AL-Displaying-your-photographs-on-BladeForums



Belt grits

There are many different ways to progress through grits.
Some makers go through every grit.

I found especially with a fast belt grinder that when grinding the bevel going directly to a fine grit like 400, 600 or 800 helped me just like slowing down the grinder would have.

I found a post that Ed Caffrey also went directly from 60 to 400 grit.

It also depends on what you are making – let’s see a drawing or template or something

Take your pick and see what works for you.



Please fill in some more profile info.
You’re going to get more respect if we know something about you.
You’re 59?
Good - put that in your profile.

You have asked 20 ish rapid fire questions just like the kids do when they come here in swarms for the summer.
Without that info in your profile we assumed that’s what it was.

What else can you tell us about yourself that will help us make the answers more meaningful to you?


“The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.”

Maybe you have a local maker who will help you HT it without shipping it away.
How about a city, or zipcode or something ? Illinois is a big state.


Questions
If you ask a very specific question with what your thoughts are from the reading and research you have done & exactly where you are stuck - It’s much easier for us to reply to that instead of trying to guess what you are thinking and write an answer that covers every possible thing..
.
.

 

[Futz Brown]

Seriously?

Why the attitude?

Do you realize you yourself have asked plenty of questions?? And, not followed the advice given? I mean really...
This forum has a a steady stream of newbies coming through which is why the Count posts his standard reply....if it bothers you answering the same question a million times, then don't.....Because it will happen...

There is no call to be abusive. In fact I believe an apology is in order....

Honestly, and I'm not really involved, but there is no reason to be nasty. I personally try to curtail my desire to start threads asking questions much as possible (because if I didn't this forum would be called "answer futz's questions"), and I try to avoid getting on anybodies bad side just because I don't want people to not want to answer my questions, but some people aren't quite up to speed on forum etiquette and aren't quite tech savvy.

No reason to be mean, ever. We should all do like fluid and if nothing else try to encourage everybody is cordial. You never know, somebody who doesn't seem to have a clue could make some really neat stuff and have a lot of knowledge to share one day. I'm sure you're all sick of hearing some noob talk about how we should all be nice to eachother, so I'm done with this part.

Blandies, like I believe I said earlier, I don't know much but I'm in a similar starting out situation as you are and you can feel free to send me an email if you've got any questions. I've got just a tiny bit of experience but I don't mind explaining things I know as best as I can.