Help this old fogey !

K

Kevin the grey

Joined
Aug 26, 2005
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O;K: Heres one that will proabably be solved by a martial artist though the solution might be worse than the problem .

As most here know I am a traditional archer and go to trad tournaments that involve shooting from odd positions such as kneeling shots and lying on the ground shots . My challenge is getting back up from kneeling shots . Even if I shoot from just one knee like a man proposing servitude I have trouble reaquiring the old upright position . I am encumbered by a bow in one hand and have actually started placing the tip on the ground like a cane to arise Aside from the fact that this is not good for the bow it doesn,t help all that much . I can,t lay the bow down as it can be quite crowded and it only takes one mistep to ruin a bow .As it is I have one hand free and it can be either hand . Does anyone have a solution or technque to help this aging warrior . .
 
Off the top of my head, I don't know of a easy fix. It's representative of a larger problem. Aging and everything that comes with it is natural, but can be slowed down a little. After 35, our muscular strength slowly begins to taper off. You might find that one alternative is to look at beginning a mild strength training or exercise program. Nothing over the top, but resistance training will do wonders to preserve muscle tone into old age. If used the right way, it can enhance your life quality. There's no good way to get around proper nutrition and proper exercise, and you can make both a fun and natural part of your life.

One other consideration, as important as the others is maintaining flexibility. The low back is extremely important. As we age, and sit too much in our chairs, the low back becomes more and more rigid and locked. Injury here is devastating. You might want to look at mild stretching and possibly yoga to increase your muscle tone and improve your flexibility. Maintaining a flexible low back and shoulders will keep you moving well as you age. A lot of the yoga training (and you can adapt it to your level with a good instructor), will also provide balance training that helps into your old age also. The ability to hold your balance on one leg is a measure of aging in Dr. Ray Walford's longetivity studies. One of my old teachers is in his 80's and he is more flexible than I am, and has no health problems. I have been learning a tremendous amount about aging and health from him.

This last notion is a stretch from your question, so I apologize for any drift on the thread. But in a way it's not. Meditation does wonders for our health. Anger and negative emotions stagnate in the body and form tensions. Yoga helps to address this and remove the blockages, as does meditation. I'm not suggesting something as far fetched as to say meditation will help you get up from your kneeling position, but in a larger dimension, it will help to deal with the inevitable negative emotions that affect our health. It's not always a large noticable thing, it's the small doses of bad stress that can add up, for me it's learning how to not get mad when commuting back and forth to work while watching people cut others (or me) off.

Come to think of it, I do have an idea, let me do another post. sometimes I lose what I type on this laptop.
 
From a kneeling position, if your left leg is in front and right leg in back, don't fight with your left leg to force your way up, the way most people do. Don't completely rely on your left (front) leg quadriceps (like someone squatting).
Try this: rock your weight back gradually to your right foot and push/rock your body weight slowly back to your right (rear) leg and rise up. Most people push off their front leg and end up going forward when the get up from a kneeling position. I'm suggesting pushing/rocking and moving your body weight back to slowly rise up on your rear leg. You should notice a smoother movement this way and one that doesn't require as much strength.

Depending on your physical health, this may help. I do recommend getting into a easy exercise program if you aren't already.

I'm also visualizing a way to move into a squatting position from a kneeling position but this would require some flexibility and may not be much use.
good luck and hope this helps.
 
I don't know if this will help, but here is an idea.

When I get into the position you describe I find I can rise either by shifting my weight forward onto the front leg and using it to rise, shifting weight back onto the rear leg, or rise using both legs.

Strengthening the leg muscles might help you. You might consider an ancient exercise used by Hindu wrestlers called the bethak. It is essentially a deep knee bend. Don't do too many. If you can do one, start there, and increase by 1 rep each day as you get stronger. You may be able to do a lot right off, but I'll warn you it's easy to do too many and be quite stiff and sore the next day. Some modern trainers will tell you not to do these because the knee comes over the toe. I do them with no ill effects though, and know of many others that do also.

If you can't do bethaks you might consider a half squat.


Both of these exercises are illustrated at http://www.bronzebowpublishing.com/exercises.html . The bethak is called a "Hindu squat."
 
Sorry for multiple posts, but I had another thought. Does the tournament require kneeling or is it a matter of body positioning to get to a target. Using a larger stance and dropping your body weight with it might be able to give you a similar position if it's a matter of shooting position to fire against a particular target.

My archery background doesn't give a good solution either. I was taught by Apache and Cherokee. When I learned the "medicine bow" it was also with requirements of hunting, tracking, fasting, running, stickfighting and 'going to water' for midnight submersions and prayer/meditation in the middle of winter.
And I was to young to understand the implications that it was an old man teaching me during the whole process. Our lifestyles, and I like my comfie lifestyle, remove us from nature and sometimes from natural solutions.
 
I'm not an archer but I am a shooter and I do a lot of position shooting. My right knee's blown and the left is going. Here's how I get around it, assuming a righthanded shooter:

1. From high kneeling, I slide my left foot forward a bit. I want it in front of the left knee...at least the toes, anyway.
2. I shift my weight backwards a bit and place it on the ball of my right foot.
3. Continuing the weight shift, I plant my left hand on left knee and push. Essentially I'm using my left shin as an extension of my left arm, and pushing myself off the ground with that. The weight shift starts the momentum and keeps it going.
4. I end up in a wide, but stable enough stance.

With this, my right knee doesn't hurt (although it will usually pop once or twice halfway up) and my left knee sees no real stress at all.

Another option: ask the guy next to you for a hand getting up. At the very least, holding your bow for you for a moment or two shouldn't be a problem. Or is this against the rules?
 
I am not exagerating when I have to train myself not to underestimate this place . I am only going to touch on a couple of the great points of view and alternate methods that I have received so far . First off I am stiffer than an Irishman on the third day of his wake ! This is partially due to the fact that my van was struck by a city truck with a snow plow attached . ( this will definitely wake you up if you are dozing ! ) I have several herniated disks as a result . I also have a screw in an ankle and a stiff knee . Whoopdedoo , it happened a decade ago and I,ve adapted and overcome . It has slowed me down a bit . I do think the partial squats and utilizing the leg behind me as assistance is an approach I have toyed with a bit . It seems like a good way to go . There does seem one point where there is a push off of sorts where one has to abandon the rear leg and gain dominance with the front leg .It may be a question of practice makes perfect to lessen this push off and regaining dominance time .(this push off may be the rocking motion mentioned) I may not be describing this exactly as I am only visualising my actions . I do think there is a flexibility issue as well as I tend to hold myself together to lessen the strain on the hernias .

I have utilised the "wider stance" technique It also works to some extent . Its drawback is that widening stance supposedly changes drawlength which throws in a whole new set of factors that tends to make me less accurate . . I do not know if it would be considered a wide cat stance or would be better described as a type of horse stance . Its a tough row to hoe as you would tend to not be at the same height due to changing conditions .You are also at the mercy of your buddies standing in line behind you . There is something about being in a wide stance partial squat that is attractive to the immature . As long as they are not touching me I can take the obvious fart jokes with a grain of salt and in truth am not so much above them myself . I have upon occasion been touched in a joking manner . This is not only incredibly ignorant thing to do from a purely "don,t touch someone without their permission from behind while they are exercising" point of view coupled with the fact I have a loaded weapon with no safety in my hands . You might think that would make people think but you can,t make people think . (kinda a catch 22 situation . ) I also come from the school of life where you remove possible threats to your well being and feel bad about it afterwards .(well sometimes I feel bad .)
The meditation is very interesting . I already use meditation as a way to focus upon goals and it is a great part of some zen archery techniques I have been approaching of late . I,ll get back to you guys when I have a chance to peruse the plethora of great advice I,ve received so far .
Right now I,m gonna go do my part and take my mutt for a walk and do some mild stretching after . There is also an extra tournament this year at my favourite haunt . (Its in the mountains and near my friends) I,ll see ya soon .
 
I have another suggestion:
Try to use a short, but sturdy and thick enough wooden club. It can be presented/carried around as a mace without spikes etc.
If you are kneeling on one of your knees, lean forward on this club and use it to help you to push yourself up. If the club is nicely rounded and thick, you can have good grasp on it. Make sure you don't lean too much forward, and try quickly to regain stabile position when you are standing up.
 
I generally have a walking stick or cane with me in addition to whatever else I may be carrying and use the one I have to help myself up from any down position.
But there are the occasions where I don't have either or anything else.
In those cases I get on one knee and push off with my hand on the knee that's off the ground, a little difficult and awkward but works for me.
You could lay your bow across one of your shoulder's and neck while attempting doing it this way.
It's easier for me too get up if I can get both knees off the ground but I think that's true of everyone.
 
Yvsa the cane might be a bit too cumbersome for my uncoordinated self.
I,ll think about securing the bow like you suggested . It may become problematic with my back quiver . Your suggestion to get both knees off the ground sounds like it makes good sense . The fact that I am not doing it already may mean something on a basic level . It sounds so simple to rock back onto my feet . I know athletes can do it without even rocking back .

The suggestion of a short club makes good ergonomic sense . As long as it has a non slip surface . I wonder if I can substitue a short handled tomahawk in its sheath into this idea .

as for someones suggestion of having the guy behind me in line help me up .
It sounds good on paper . Unfortunately slow wits and immaturity seem to take hold in crowds of men . Lowest common denominator and all that . Don,t get me wrong . Most of these guys will bend over backwards for me . I think there is an idea that we should be self reliant and the fact that I am one of the very few who do (or has to) go to the extremes that I do to get a clean shot .
 
A small staff/cane(or tomahawk as you said) was my first idea too. I've used my half hatchet same way when out camping after gettin gdown to pull out tent stakes, check part of tent, cut something low on trail, etc. works well. w ould work even better with most tomahawks, the blade on my half hatchet is a bit thicker vertically, so ahrder to use it as a handle than a tomahawk would be.
 
I,ve often asked on other forums for pics of hawk carrys . It would be easy enough to make a mag-lite style ring,loop holder on a belt . I,d rather go with something a little more original if not authentic . I think some kind of cradle on a belt would do or even on the sash style leather belt on my back quiver . Anybody happen to have any pics of an axe or hawk carry .
 
To the cane suggestions, I suggest one other feature - a horizontal hand grib so you can "press" yourself up, rather than pull. The height depends on your personal situation. I get this idea from a seasoned shooter who uses it to rise from prone shooting.
 
Kevin, a cane, walking stick, etc., might do the trick, but as I understand it you don't need the thing to walk, just to stand up. How about a four legged "cane" that ain't a cane? I'm talking about one of those simple, sturdy, wood frame, folding camp stools. Should give you a solid and stable platform to push up off, and if anyone asks you can just tell 'em, "a good archer is always prepared, even to shoot sitting if need be". ;) Besides, a good camp stool is always a handy thing, as in, "good day m'lady, one as lovely as you should not be made to stand, please be seated and rest yourself, here on my wee little chair" (oh yeah, us medieval types know how to be "smooth").:D

Sarge
 
Kismet said:
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=shillelagh cudgel&spell=1&sa=N&tab=wi


Image one might work to create enough elevation for you.

and I didn't look it up, but there is a yoga exercise referred to as "Salute to the Sun" which may provide some strengthening exercises for you. Pick and choose which elements in it would suit your health and needs.

Be well and safe.
Click to expand...

Kismet , my dad actually has one of those short cudgels that would be perfect as to size and stability . Unfortunately he has gotten to the age where he has bigger things on his mind than a piece of thorn wood . Its actually a mean looking little beasty that would serve no purpose better than pommeling someone into a puddle . Now that you,ve brought it to mind there are several thorn trees on my range that have a wood that is so dense it is scary . Someone on this forum mentioned waxing the green wood and putting it up a fireplace chimney to cure . I won,t be able to hit that part of the range till spring . It gives me another avenue to look at . I like the Yoga suggestion as well . I need stretching and limbering as much as a strength regimen .
 
I dont know exactly what physical problems, if any you may have, but here is the Japanese formal way of firing from a seated position:

(Ill help you get down first)

With the bow in your left hand, left thumb on your hip, and the top of the bow held 10 cm above the floor, Turn your body 90 degrees from the target. Take a 1/2 step back with your right foot. (your right toes touch your left foot in front of the heel)
Now sink slowly straight downwards until your right knee touches the ground. Slide your right knee forward until your left knee touches the ground and your knees are together. (actually , one fist width apart) Sit down on your legs.

(let the tip of the bow rest on the ground)

Next, raise up onto your knees by pushing your hips forward. Bring up your right foot and step out at a 45 degree angle. Your right foot should be one arrows length away from your left knee.
From this position, you can fire your bow.

When you are finished, bring your right foot back and sit back down on your legs. Then, push your hips forward and raise up again.
This time, take a SMALL forward step with your left foot and then stand up with the right foot.

Go slow, dont force anything, try to feel your balance at all times. Keep your back straight, let the hips be the first part of you that goes anywhere..

I dont know of any prone archery positions, but I will ask Sensei tomorrow if I can remember to.
 
Sylvrfalcn said:
Besides, a good camp stool is always a handy thing, as in, "good day m'lady, one as lovely as you should not be made to stand, please be seated and rest yourself, here on my wee little chair" (oh yeah, us medieval types know how to be "smooth").:D

Sarge
Click to expand...

For a mighty long time I thought medieval was spelled mediaevil with the mark such as media'evil.:rolleyes: ;)
Maybe I wasn't so far off considering the thoughts that some medieval's have for the young and sometimes not quite so young ladies under the guise of being smooth.;) :cool:
Kudos to you Sarge, you are one of the honorable men and single so the world is your oyster.:thumbup: :cool: :D
It would be great if we lived within visiting distance. I would be honored to raise a glass in person to toast you and your smooth ways.:D
I'm really pleased to know you even if we have never met.:thumbup:
 
I'm with Munk on this.. I Take a med called celebrex, can hear the cracks & graunches but cannot feel them. Very convienient:)

Found meditation works extemely well for stress related stiffness. But aging joints are aging joints:grumpy:

Something we all have to learn to live with, eventually.

We really should look after our body from our teens, methinks, in hindsight. But who the hell does???
 
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