Help with neatness

i4Marc

i4Marc

Joined
Oct 19, 2011
Messages
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I'm making pretty serviceable sheaths but I'm having trouble achieving that impeccable look that so many of you have mastered. The well dressed edges, the smooth flawless surfaces, the super clean and neat stitching. Can you post up some tips for getting such clean and crisp results? I'm almost done with a sheath. I'll post pictures when it's done and you guys can tear it apart and get into specifics about the problems you see. But anything you can think of that can help would be appreciated. I have Chuck's video and Paul's advanced video. I'm trying to take in all I can but I'm not getting the results I want yet.
 
I don't know if I'm qualified to give out too much advice , but here goes anyway :) .
Your work space , your tools , your hands , cutting surfaces everything must be kept clean and tidy .
In my case everything that was used in the previous stage of the sheath is put away and the next stage is thought through from start to finish and only the items and tools required are placed out .
The surface is continuously swept clean and I have begun to use sheets of paper ( just A4 sized printer sheets , they are dirt cheap ) during many of the stages of production . When they get any marks , cuts anything just screw them up and get some more .
That way your work is always on a pristine surface .
Wash your hands and cut your fingernails .
Go into any precision production facility and you will never see clutter and mess , it will be surgically clean and organised . Can you say the same about your work practices and area ?
The "Super Clean" finished product is the Holy Grail that I'm always chasing . I've seen glimpses of it in the distance , but never actually held it in my hands :).
Good luck , I applaud your desire to continuously improve :thumbup:

Ken
 
How are you doing your stitching now?

I stitch by first grooving the presentation side, then using the correct overstitch wheel (damp) then drill the holes with a needle in the drill press (I use beeswax too) then carefully groove the backside.

Good needles and quality thread with the proper amount of wax are important.

Tap the stitches with a mallet then use the overstitcher to finish. If I take my time it comes out pretty nice.

What do you mean by smooth surfaces?

Edges are my final step. After everything else is done I use the big belt sander to get a very smooth and even welt edge. Followed by edge beveling, I apply a bit of gum trag and let dry. Burnish with a nylon bone folder. I don't always dye the edges either. Sometimes it just looks right to me to have the edge natural. Don't over-do the contact cement as that can cause boogers.

I liked how the edge came out on this one.

3S8SYCP.jpg


The sheath is black over red, but the edge is straight red.

This one is super simple but the stitching came out nicely.

UveCHuv.jpg


Using a press (with a needle) it gets tricky beyond 4 layers of 8oz. Two to three is no problem. If you ever try this method, I suggest mimicking a bladed awl by making the blade (in this case, a chucked up needle) as short as is reasonable. Beeswax is your friend. Needles in the press can get very hot too which is both good and bad. Once hot, it goes through the leather like butter (nice) but too hot and you'll get a halo of darkness around the hole. Not a big deal unless it isn't being dyed. Speaking of dye. I dye after grooving and overstitching, but before punching the holes. The beeswax might resist dye. I also let any dye dry really well before stitching if I'm using a light colored thread.

I'm sure you could teach me a bunch of things, these are just the ways I've learned to do it from trial and error. ;)
 
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All good advice. I had some unexpected distractions today and wasn't able to finish my sheath. I'll try to wrap it up tomorrow so I can post some pictures. Then you'll have an idea what I'm doing....or at least how it's turning out. I'm sure it gets easier the more you do it and repetition helps developing consistency and confidence but each sheath I've done so far has been a different design than the one before so I haven't been able to get in a groove yet (pardon the pun). I try to follow all Chuck and Paul's excellent advice from their videos. I do the edge beveling, the grooving, overstitch etc. I suppose what I'm getting at is trying to get a more refined and professional look to the finished product. Part of it is I feel the thread I've been using so far is too thick. I don't always get the edges as smooth and flat as I'd like and I'm still using Tandy double shoulder. Maybe a different supplier will result in a finer grade of leather and finish with fewer flaws. Also, I haven't figured a way yet to get through all the stages of handling the leather while keeping the leather from flexing excessively. And punching the holes, overstitching, opening the holes from the other side, overstitching those holes which close up the first holes again so I have to open up the first side holes again and.... you get the idea. Just over-working the piece in general. It also never seems like the stitch grooves I cut are deep enough. When I do the overstitch from the reverse side it always seems to erase a lot of the groove on the first side. Grrrrr. I just haven't developed a good working procedure or routine yet. I'll post pics as soon as I can.
 
Order of processes is super tricky for me. I have a graph paper notebook that I use to sketch in and on the back I've written every step in order for my most commonly produced pouch sheaths. Even having done that I sometimes screw the order and have to get creative. I'm not as organised as I'd like.

These are some of my most common steps.

Stamp/tool/carve everything that I plan to.

Allow to dry. This is important to keep stamped areas from losing definition in cases where the leather will be folded, wet formed etc.

Dye everything I plan to dye.

Allow to dry.

Oil areas that I'll need to resist.

Allow to dry.

Use a resist (if I plan to antique) .

Allow to dry.

Add gel antique making certain it has gotten into every nook and cranny.

Let dry fully.

Wipe (buff) to remove unwanted antique.

THEN once all of that's done I take the edges back to the big platen belt sander. I usually only use 220 grit unless I have a reason to be more aggrieve. I've found that edges right off the sander (for me) are usually better than what I get from hand sanding. I use two different belt Sanders and a few drums.

Bevel edges

Wet hand sand

Are you saying that your piece gets dirty, or marked, while working? Marks are reduced by working with the leather dry as much as possible. If dirt is the concern I use lots of plastic wrap on surfaces and rubber gloves. At the press I have a couple of scrap pieces of leather that I put my work on to keep it from touching the steel table. It allows my work to slide without touching metal which, as you know, can discolor the clean veg tanned. I'd tried plastic wrap and wax paper but it's sticky and annoying.

I'm sure you already know most (or all) of what I'm saying, I'm just kinda throwing the kitchen sink at ya.

I look forward to seeing the pics when you get the time.
 
My 2¢
Listen to Striggy above...
:)
And I'll add...
Don't rush.
Enjoy the process (and don't push for the results).
Don't be afraid to put the project down and come back to it later.
Especially if you start to get frustrated or frazzled.

Take your time.
:D
 
Yep. Had to walk away from it today for a little while. Got about 25% of the stitching around the edge done when the thread broke. My neighbors must have thought someone with turrets syndrome was off his meds today. I sure let some colorful words fly. I didn't actually throw anything though(but I really wanted to). So I calmed down and pulled them all out and re stitched it all. I could've spliced it but that would have bothered me forever. Plus this is for a friend of mine and I'm not going to give him anything but my best effort. I'll post pictures when it's done.
 
I've broken or simply run out of thread.

Everyone that hand sews will eventually come across this problem. Sometimes it's impractical to pull all the thread and start over. A really long running stitch while saddle making is one example.

There is a very good way of dealing with it. Al Stohlman covers it in one of the books I've got. A "normal" repair would irk me too, but Al (or his wife) never measured out thread. They didn't have the luxury of the high end threads that we have right now either. They regularly "fixed" the issue and it really works well. Kinda hard to write it without pics but maybe one of the elders can elaborate if words fail me.

So... Your thread broke. (I'm assuming you are doing a regular two needle harness stitch)

Back out two or three stitches so that you have a little length on each side.

Take the two ends and tie them together nice and snug. This means that you'll have a knot over the welt (or edge or whatever).

Now you have nice stitch up to the point of the break then the ends are knotted together.

Rig up your needles like normal.

Now thread your needle and thread through the hole before the last hole. Meaning, the hole before the one that now has the tied knot.

Finish sewing the project.

Once you're done simply cut off the tied knot (and the extra length) in the channel. Be careful not to damage the surrounding thread.

Drink a Pepsi.

I have broken down entire sheaths due to a broken or short thread. I'll never need to do that again!

If the explanation above doesn't make sense hunt down a copy of "The Art of Hand Sewing Leather". There is a wealth of great information on every page. Some I thought didn't pertain to me and what I do, but I find myself doing all manor of stuff that I never planned on, like making a masseuse's oil holster belt for my sis. People find out that you work with leather and they ask for all kinds of things!

;)
 
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Thanks for that Strig and everybody else who offered advice. I have Al's book. It is fantastic. Yes, I did the two needle harness stitch. It came out pretty well after I replaced the thread. I have Tiger thread coming in the mail right now but I only have waxed cotton thread in the shop right now so I had to use that. It always makes me nervous. I have broken threads before. It always sucks. I have a slight issue now...or maybe not. I don't know yet. The sheath is all put together, dyed, burnished, etc. The only things left to do are wet form it and weather proof it. Here's the deal. The sheath has flaps that partially cover and protect the knife handle. The sheath is a pancake style where the back, welt and front are all separate pieces that get stacked and sewn. This makes the handle area with the flaps as thick as the blade part of the sheath. The problem of course is that the guard and handle are a bit thicker than the blade so the flaps have to be wet formed to create a wider space at the guard to accommodate the handle and guard. Otherwise, the guard lugs will never seat on top of the welt. But the sheath is already dyed and finished. I don't know if wetting the sheath at this point will ruin the finish or not. I guess I'll find out later today.
 
Wet away. Having it dyed and put together never stopped me.
Then again I'm not Mr Sandy or Mr Paul :)
 
Great! I'm just getting up the courage to do it right now and reading that relaxes me....a little. :)
 
When I need to wet form, I do as much as possible before dyeing. One thing to keep in mind, wet forming before glueing and stitching can alter the shape of fitted (especially when the edges are already evened out) pieces so that they don't stack the same after forming. I had to completely make a new top piece recently because of this.

I'm still perfecting my processes so I try new things all the time. With stacked sheaths I've found it helpful to assemble with contact cement, wet form, dye, then even up the edges, groove, mark holes, do the holes, groove the back, touch up the grooves and holes with dye (sharpie works well for this and may help with keeping dye off your thread), bevel the corners off the edges, touch up the edges with dye and apply the edge dye. After all that I sew it up and burnish. Not too different than the steps for a pouch sheath I guess.

The steps can change too depending on other things like doing an overlay with thin skin.

I try and think of as many steps ahead as possible. Will what I'm doing now cause an issue with something else down the line?

Small problems are like when you accidentally touch the knife you're making to a 40 grit belt and knock off a corner that you didn't mean to, you just have to make it look like you meant to do it. I'm still learning with everything that I do, but that's one big takeaway from what more experienced guys have taught me.
 
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I am casing the leather right now. I try to plan every step in advance all the way through the process but sometimes I get a curve ball or I don't anticipate something. I used black thread so no worries there. My main concerns with wetting the leather are that I used a water based dye on the front and back of the sheath and that I have some stamping on the front of the sheath that I don't want to lose any definition. So I am doing localized wetting, not the whole sheath. Everything is finished on the sheath except for opening up the guard/handle area and final finishing with Montana Pitch Blend. I'll let you know how it goes.
 
Fine. Here are some pictures. This is before any wet forming or waterproofing. I'll post final pictures later.


Front:






Back:



Side:



With the occupant:
 
Lookin good!

I'm curious about how that wet forming goes. Now that you mention it, the Eco-Flo water based dyes were the ones I had issue with. I've had Fiebings run too, but not nearly as bad. Localized wetting is a good idea. I had a customer ask about how they should go about a little extra forming and I suggested a little water about the ricasso area. May not get a super defined form, but it's not necessary most of the time, at least on the pouch sheaths that I do.

How many stitches per inch are you doing? Aside from a few examples I've mainly used 5spi but I'm really liking the look of a finer stitch.

The knife deserves a great sheath and it looks like it's getting it. :thumbup:
 
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i4Marc, that sheath is really very nicely done. Excellent design for the knife. My only criticism (if any) would be your choice of snap off belt loop. It's kind of hard for me to trust snap off in hard carry circumstances, and that's a fairly large knife.

If I were grading, you'd get and A for that one.

Paul
 
Strig,

I'm not sure exactly how many s.p.i. but going by the photo it looks like 6 per inch. I like the finer spacing but it is more work. In the case of this particular sheath I chose this spacing because the spacing fell perfectly for the various lengths of stitch groove around the sheath.



Paul,

Thank you very much. I respect your work and your kind remarks are really encouraging. I've gotten many great tips from your advanced sheath video. The reason I went with the snaps is because the gentleman I made this knife for wanted a sheath with a way to get it on and off when getting in and out of his car without undoing his belt. I did consider putting in a Sam Brown stud but I don't have a way to make one yet. I don't like the commercially available ones. I went with the three snaps for design but also to make sure there will be enough snap to do the job. The person getting this rig will definitely be using it in the woods and I don't want it to come off unless he wants it to. This is only the sixth knife I've made and the fifth sheath I've made so far so I still have a lot to learn. Each sheath before has been a different design so it seems that each sheath I make is a unique learning experience. But I will take the lessons I learn from this one and apply them to the ones that follow.
 
There was some discussion recently about snaps and effort for using them. Apparently Tandy snaps take less effort to operate than the other brand (the other brand name escapes me). That may be something to look into if you'll be doing this again. I've only used the Tandy line 20 and 24 snaps and haven't had any problems, but I haven't used them for an application like yours.

When I first started making dangler straps I thought about using a couple of L24's but got talked out of it and now only use Chicago screws. I can't imagine your design failing. I can only imagine that the force required to unsnap three L24's (especially if those were shearing forces) would alert the owner that something significant is happening.
 
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