Henckel, Bonvivant, Sabatier? What to choose?
- Thread starter lambertiana
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lambertiana
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My vote goes for the Wusthof Trident, I like them the best.
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Die Entropie der Welt strebt einem Maximum zu - R.J.E. Clausius
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Die Entropie der Welt strebt einem Maximum zu - R.J.E. Clausius
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Funny, when I talk to forumitees about knives in general, their knowledge is great.
When it comes to kitchen knives, almost nobody knows more than just a few facts and they will have a highly personal opinion.
For example, how many of you know the type of steel that the different manufacturers use? I certainly don´t. The only fact one is about to get hold on is the mark on the blade, usually saying Chromium-Vanadium steel. That´s it. Nothing more.
I believe it´s the consumers own fault. We should demand more facts.
That is why I have to ask if you know what kind of steel those two knives are made of? When all comes together, that is the most important issue, isn´t it?
Take care
When it comes to kitchen knives, almost nobody knows more than just a few facts and they will have a highly personal opinion.
For example, how many of you know the type of steel that the different manufacturers use? I certainly don´t. The only fact one is about to get hold on is the mark on the blade, usually saying Chromium-Vanadium steel. That´s it. Nothing more.
I believe it´s the consumers own fault. We should demand more facts.
That is why I have to ask if you know what kind of steel those two knives are made of? When all comes together, that is the most important issue, isn´t it?
Take care
<a href="http://www.fallkniven.com/k1k2/k1.htm">Fällkniven K1</a>.
215 mm blade = 8 1/2 in, so it's a bit smaller than asked for.
<small>Disclosure: No, I haven't tried out all the different knives there are. But now I don't think I'll have to.</small>
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Urban Fredriksson www.canit.se/%7Egriffon/
Latest updates:
Fällkniven K1+K2, EKA Nordic W11, Schrade Lake & Walker
"I've always been fascinated by Scandinavian knives [...] they're simple, in an advanced way". - Bob Loveless
Most of the Solingen/Germany made kitchen knives like Zwilling/Henckels, Dreizack, WMF and others are made of 1.4034 steel. This is a fairly low carbon (0.45 %) stainless steel very similar to (if not the same as) AISI 420J. The producers like it because of it's easy machining, heat/surface treatment and stain resistance properties. They don't hold an edge very well, as most of the forumites can tell you from other knives with 420J blades.
If you prefer western style knives, you better go with one of the more expensive series from a european maker with either a special surface treatment (ceramic coating) or another steel (like Sandvik 12C27).
Personally, i prefer japanese style kitchen knives from top-class steels. Take a look at the knives from
http://www.dick-gmbh.de/
or ask a custom knifemaker to make something from a top-class steel like Böhler K190PM for you to your personal specs. I recently made a kind of hybrid west/east kitchen knife for a friend using this steel and it woks a lot better than the stuff from the big companies. You can see it at
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=575309&a=9215500&p=25830132
Questions?
Achim
If you prefer western style knives, you better go with one of the more expensive series from a european maker with either a special surface treatment (ceramic coating) or another steel (like Sandvik 12C27).
Personally, i prefer japanese style kitchen knives from top-class steels. Take a look at the knives from
http://www.dick-gmbh.de/
or ask a custom knifemaker to make something from a top-class steel like Böhler K190PM for you to your personal specs. I recently made a kind of hybrid west/east kitchen knife for a friend using this steel and it woks a lot better than the stuff from the big companies. You can see it at
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=575309&a=9215500&p=25830132
Questions?
Achim
- Joined
- Jan 4, 1999
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- 3,000
It's a function of preferences and not performance, I can assure you. We recently ran a blind test with knives from Henckels, Wusthof and Sabatier (the brands we carry that are similar to one another.) We reground all the blades to the same bevel and sharpened them identically. We then had people cut with them blindfolded (no, nobody drew blood) dulled the knives a little on the cutting board, steeled them and cut again. The results? Nobody could tell the difference. The preferences disappeared when people didn't know which brand they were using. The moral of the story is that you should pick what appeals to you for whatever reason. One isn't better than another, as it turns out.
To the poster who suggested hard vs. soft steels, soft steels are usually better for kitchen use. They steel more easily and are a little more rust and stain resistant. You don't really want high tech steels in a kitchen knife. 440A or an equivalent is about ideal. Most high end kitchen cutlery use an alloy that performas similarly to 440A. I've used kitchen knives made from 440C and ATS-34 respectively and I don't recommend them. Fine for a pocket knife. Not so fine in the kitchen. Take care.
Fred
Knife Outlet
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Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
To the poster who suggested hard vs. soft steels, soft steels are usually better for kitchen use. They steel more easily and are a little more rust and stain resistant. You don't really want high tech steels in a kitchen knife. 440A or an equivalent is about ideal. Most high end kitchen cutlery use an alloy that performas similarly to 440A. I've used kitchen knives made from 440C and ATS-34 respectively and I don't recommend them. Fine for a pocket knife. Not so fine in the kitchen. Take care.
Fred
Knife Outlet
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Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
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www.tichbourneknives.com Check out George's kitchen knives. Great functional designs, excellent workmanship, and you get to use a custom knife where knives get used the most- in the kitchen.
I purchased one of George Tichbournes 440C knives about a month ago and finally had to touch it up after three weeks of almost daily use in a typical family kitchen. This is a far sight better than the trident knives I also use. Since I use a ceramic rod rather than a steel, the knives are actually sharpened,not just re-shaped. As a result of the performance of this harder than normal kitchen knife, I have become a convert with regards to a better steel kitchen knife. I am hoping to pick up a fallkniven kitchen knife soon since VG10 holds an edge a real long time on my Spyderco Moran.
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First of all, thanks for the responses.
Griffon:
Your are right, that knife looks very solid. However, there are two things I don´t find very practical. First of all, as you mentioned, the blade is a little too short. I´ve found that a blade length of about 23-27 cm (9"-10") feels the most comfortable and effective.
The second issue is the coating. I just hate those scratches. Otherwise the knife is a very nice piece.
AchimW:
I liked the western style kitchen knife. But as mentioned earlier, I prefer a slightly longer blade. The Böhler could be a hit, have to check it out.
Knife Outlet:
I am sure you are right about that issue not being able to decide what knife it is while blindfolded. However, I don´t agree with you about the steel aspect. I personaly prefer a little bit harder stuff that the 440A since I do not steel my kitchen knives. As my knives start being dull I give them a touch on my 204. Works great, eats no steel
So, my personal wish would be a knife that holds an edge as long as possible. The rust is no problem, I am a very careful guy, constantly wiping and cleaning all my knives (not only kitchen ones).
richard rosvall:
richard, that big chef´s knife is the most impressive kitchen knife I´ve ever seen. I shure would like to own one of those. But than again, there is the price issue. The knife is so to speak a little bit out of my league. But maybe in the future...
bansidthe:
Your post makes clear that richard is right about the high Q of the Tichbourne knives.
Thanks again for all your responses guys, take care!
Griffon:
Your are right, that knife looks very solid. However, there are two things I don´t find very practical. First of all, as you mentioned, the blade is a little too short. I´ve found that a blade length of about 23-27 cm (9"-10") feels the most comfortable and effective.
The second issue is the coating. I just hate those scratches. Otherwise the knife is a very nice piece.
AchimW:
I liked the western style kitchen knife. But as mentioned earlier, I prefer a slightly longer blade. The Böhler could be a hit, have to check it out.
Knife Outlet:
I am sure you are right about that issue not being able to decide what knife it is while blindfolded. However, I don´t agree with you about the steel aspect. I personaly prefer a little bit harder stuff that the 440A since I do not steel my kitchen knives. As my knives start being dull I give them a touch on my 204. Works great, eats no steel
richard rosvall:
richard, that big chef´s knife is the most impressive kitchen knife I´ve ever seen. I shure would like to own one of those. But than again, there is the price issue. The knife is so to speak a little bit out of my league. But maybe in the future...
bansidthe:
Your post makes clear that richard is right about the high Q of the Tichbourne knives.
Thanks again for all your responses guys, take care!
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I use Wustoff knives because the quality is excellent but probably as the blind test showed about the same as the other top blades. I like the availabilty of the many diverse blades for the Wustoff in the classic handle, so all my knives match. I will have to try one of George's knives though!
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Having sold primarily kitchen cutlery at Seattle Cutlery for a year, I can say Global uses a very similer vanadium molybdenm blend to Wustoff, both top of the line for production cutlery but I'd have to agree that a harder steel would be nice for those who who only practice hollywood style steeling of their cutlery, so they wouldn't have to steel so much.
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I'll have to second the Foschner and the Old Hickory line. Both are low $ and work extremely well. I have some of the expensive German kitchen knives, but I would rather use the other two 'cheaper' brands.
The carbon blades get a nice patina after a while and a little rust never hurt any one.
I can't afford the $$ stuff, but I like affordable knives that are easy to sharpen and joy to slice with. I rather put the money I save toward some custom folders .....LOL.
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Ray 'md2020'
ATKI member #A001042
The carbon blades get a nice patina after a while and a little rust never hurt any one.
I can't afford the $$ stuff, but I like affordable knives that are easy to sharpen and joy to slice with. I rather put the money I save toward some custom folders .....LOL.
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Ray 'md2020'
ATKI member #A001042
Kitchen knives ..... what do you really want?
Many people buy kitchen knives based on name alone with little knowledge of materials, function and/or design. Do you want to slice or cleave? Do you need to steel? etc.
What I have found so far is that I like a handle with a bird's beak (great safety and security in the grip). The handle needs to be full and gently rounded to ease the stress on my hands. In general I prefer blades with a lot of height (spine to cutting edge). On larger knives, little to no belly as I generally push cut and then pull the blade through. The thinner the blade the better (generally thinner is better as long as there is enough steel to make it stiff).
I like the way the Henckel's Pro-S knives perform. The full tang construction is nice as well. In general though, the grip is too small and my hands become tired which can lead to accidents in the kitchen
I am awaiting my new kitchen knives from George Tichbourne. You can check out my selection criteria at : Custom Kitchen Knives - Who and what materials I found his prices to reasonable considering the materials and qualities of the knives. Their customer service has certainly been good as well. As soon as they clear customs and the post office delivers, I will give them a good work out.
What sort of price range are you looking at? With exchange rates and VAT (Value Added Tax), I don't know how to compare the different brands pricewise. For a single knife that you will use often, I would tend to splurge a little and get a superior piece such as George Tichbournes (at ~$120 American plus shipping). A good knife will last you a lifetime and, most people spend at least some of each day in the kitchen ensuring a lot of use over one lifetime
Stay Sharp,
Sid
[This message has been edited by Sid Post (edited 11-07-2000).]
Many people buy kitchen knives based on name alone with little knowledge of materials, function and/or design. Do you want to slice or cleave? Do you need to steel? etc.
What I have found so far is that I like a handle with a bird's beak (great safety and security in the grip). The handle needs to be full and gently rounded to ease the stress on my hands. In general I prefer blades with a lot of height (spine to cutting edge). On larger knives, little to no belly as I generally push cut and then pull the blade through. The thinner the blade the better (generally thinner is better as long as there is enough steel to make it stiff).
I like the way the Henckel's Pro-S knives perform. The full tang construction is nice as well. In general though, the grip is too small and my hands become tired which can lead to accidents in the kitchen
I am awaiting my new kitchen knives from George Tichbourne. You can check out my selection criteria at : Custom Kitchen Knives - Who and what materials I found his prices to reasonable considering the materials and qualities of the knives. Their customer service has certainly been good as well. As soon as they clear customs and the post office delivers, I will give them a good work out.
What sort of price range are you looking at? With exchange rates and VAT (Value Added Tax), I don't know how to compare the different brands pricewise. For a single knife that you will use often, I would tend to splurge a little and get a superior piece such as George Tichbournes (at ~$120 American plus shipping). A good knife will last you a lifetime and, most people spend at least some of each day in the kitchen ensuring a lot of use over one lifetime
Stay Sharp,
Sid
[This message has been edited by Sid Post (edited 11-07-2000).]
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Good call on the Tichbourne. They are the next kitchen knives that I'm going to get.