Henckel, Bonvivant, Sabatier? What to choose?

The Knife Outlet comment that similar knife designs perform similarly seems sort of obvious. If you want a knife to do a better job you need a different design more than you need a different steel. MAC provides a superior performance by making thinner blades. Thinner passes through your work easier, but can present durability problems. They use a couple different alloys that provide them with a tougher edge. Their old standard line uses an alloy similar to AUS-8, which is harder than most kitchen cutlery alloys. Their Superior line alloy is harder yet with vanadium and tungsten.

Their alloy selection allows them to achieve superior performance in a third way. The vanadium and tungsten both contribute to making the steel exceptionally fine grained. This results in the blades taking an exceptionally sharp edge. Here's a link.

http://www.macknife.com/page3.html
 
Well, I am making myself a 7" santoku kitchen knife from San Mai laminate of 52100 and 410 ss from Daryl Meier, so I will let you guys know how it works when it is done around chrsitmas time!
 
Originally posted by Jeff Clark:
The Knife Outlet comment that similar knife designs perform similarly seems sort of obvious. If you want a knife to do a better job you need a different design more than you need a different steel
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This is exactly what I meant and the reason for why I didn´t agree with Knife Outlet. However to be able to make a different design, you have to change the steel, in order to make the knife thinner, like the Mac. BTW I am very impressed by the Mac Knives, specially the Chef´s 10" blade. The price is very moderate considering the general appearence and assumed quality. Hm, food for thaught...
Now I am really confused, those Mac knives appeal to me as well
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Global is the best. Better than Henckel or Wusthof. Get the forged 10" Chef knife and you won't look back.

Cheers,
Damon
 
Jeff, it isn't obvious. That's why we ran the test. People constantly state that one brand outperforms another even though the knives are made about the same. Notice just above this post is a preference for Global and and further up is one for Sabatier. Understand that these are preferences. The posters can't prove they are better but I can prove that they aren't. You need to dig past preference or succomb to it. Asking for preferences on a form like this seems a little silly. One's own preferences are what matters. If one product is truly superior then tests will bear that out. My tests with some of the best kitchen knives in the industry only bore out that they performed the same.

Incidentally, the preference for harder steels is preference in my opinion too. The vast majority of chefs will choose a knife that steels easily because they steel them with virtually every use. Chefs will also prefer lots of stain resistance. Hard steels are for people who don't or won't maintain an edge. I think that's a bad practice in the kitchen. Fine for a pocket knife, but not in the kitchen. My preference lies with the majority of chefs but I understand how lovers of high tech sporting knives would disagree.

There is a good point to the thin blade post above, by the way. They will certainly outperform thick blades in both cutting and maintenance (hence the popularity of Forschner knives which are soft and thin.) The problem is that they are light knives and, again, most chefs prefer heavy knives so that gets down to preference as well.

Take care.

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Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
 
Regarding hard or soft steels...the majority of chefs (my brother the pro chef included) are trained to use a steel which removes very little steel if any. This would be totally inadequate if used on a harder blade. I taught my brother to use a ceramic rod to maintain the edge, not just to reshape it. He now uses custom made ATS34 kitchen knives which he resharpens far less frequently than he steeled his old Forschners. He claims he saves at least 20 minutes a day. I agree that if the harder steel is not maintained then the knives will be dangerous to use. Although my desire for harder steel knives is a preference, ther are good practical reasons for it.
 
Originally posted by Knife Outlet:

The vast majority of chefs will choose a knife that steels easily because they steel them with virtually every use. Chefs will also prefer lots of stain resistance. Hard steels are for people who don't or won't maintain an edge. I think that's a bad practice in the kitchen.

most chefs prefer heavy knives so that gets down to preference as well.
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Knife Outlet, now really... You claim that chef´s steel their knives almost every time (and you are right) prior to usage. Well, this is exactly our point. If the steel would maintain its edge for a substantialy longer time, they wouldn´t have to, right???

Further, you maintain that most chefs prefer stain resistance and hard steels are for those who gives a **** about their knives (excuse my language).

Well if the chefs were so picky they would just wipe the knife after usage, and there wouldn´t be the urge for that level of stain resistance. So I assume that what you actually mean is that most of the chefs are really slobby
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Now, I will show you the message I recently received from Harold Arimoto, MAC Knife, Inc:

Paul,

Thanks for your message. You have a good understanding of what truly defines a great knife. Most chefs and so-called knife experts believe that heavy, forged knives are the best. However, in actual use, the most important components are blade thinness, fully V-taper grind, sharp V angle, alloy, and hardness. Since you are familiar with these theories, you will very much enjoy our knives which are the finest available.

Well?...


 
When a blade is extremely thin hardness is not simply a preference, it becomes a necessity. A really thin edge on a thin blade rolls over easilly. You need a better steel if you are going to use the knife for anything approaching general purposes. Fortunately you can maintain the thin edge with a ceramic steel. I use a drawing or stropping stroke on my ceramic steel for quick touch up. It doesn't take much and it doesn't have to be done all that often with a MAC knife.
 
I just love the Sabatier line of knives. I have always been loyal to the German steel, but the sabatier (which comes from France) are to me, higher in quality, edge holding, and ease of sharpening.

If you really want expert advise, contact Michael, (chefget)because he is a chef, and owns his own restaurant. You can reach him here<a href="chefget@home.com"> Click Here!</a>

Good luck!

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BC... For those who fought for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know... Semper Fi

[This message has been edited by narruc1 (edited 11-09-2000).]
 
Just a thought. Have you ever considered something from the Global(Yoshikin) range of knives? I use these myself and have nothing but good to say about them. The all in one design makes them extremely hygenic and practical. Nicely balanced and VERY stylish too.
 
Originally posted by Brian McL:
Have you ever considered something from the Global(Yoshikin) range of knives.
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Yes Brian, I have considered those, and also their look alike´s the Bonvivant series. But somehow, I don´t like the all metal knife. It is cold, it is slippery and it just doesn´t appeal to me. However the steel used in those knives is very good!
Thanks
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Originally posted by Blues:

Supreme sharpness, excellent materials and craftsmanship.
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Only one more thing to add -Wow- But how about the price issue? I wasn´t quite able to calculate it.
 
dePaul,

I'm not sure I follow. If you go to the site, click on "Muteki" and you will see the kitchen knives displayed at the top. (Murray also offers forged kitchen knives as well. The Q&A section explains the differences in materials and construction as well as giving a host of other information.)

The prices are marked alongside the individual knives.

As a point of reference, a "sun" is about 1.1875" or 3 cm. So you have to do a little multiplying to figure out the length of the knives.

If I can be of any help, let me know, or better yet, write Murray, who is extremely helpful in addition to being one hell of a bladesmith.

I'll be able to report more after receiving my order in the near future.

I will tell you that I believe the neck knife I got from Murray is the sharpest knife I own, with my scary sharp Finnish puukko coming in second.

Blues

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Live Free or Die

Blues' Knife Pix



[This message has been edited by Blues (edited 11-10-2000).]
 
Blues, thank you for you kind words. I just wasn´t looking properly. Thanks again!
 
I'm with Fred on this one. I have a set of Henckels and an old set of Chicago Cutlery. They both have a chef's knife about the same size. When I sharpen them both on my EdgePro. I find no difference in cutting or dulling time.

I actually find that I can get a better edge on the Chicago Cutlery than the Henckel's.

Just my opinion,

Gary
 
Originally posted by bbtjohn:

I actually find that I can get a better edge on the Chicago Cutlery than the Henckel's.
Gary
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I am not suprised, the Henckel´s have so thick blades that it has to take considerably long time to rebevel them to the 30 deg angle, which most chef´s prefer. They are heavy, thick and the steel is not too outstanding.
 
My 10" Sabatier (carbon steel) gets little use since I discovered Global.
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Both take excellent edges, but the Globals are easier to maintain.
 
Fred,
The kitchen knives I like the best? They are in Mom and Dad'd kitchen - They are 50+ Year old Sabatier CARBON steel knives. I've never found any of the new knives that cut like that, and I have Sabatier, Wostoff (sp?) Henckel etc (all top of the line models too)

BTW when someone I know gets married, besides a nice $$$ gift, I usually give them either an 8" or 10" kitchen knife
 
Yes the Global´s are nice. However, I am not too fond of the all metal look. When wet, it´s slippery, it´s kind of cold and the grip you get is nowhere near the more traditional handle.
And there are better knives IMO if you want all metal. I believe that Bonvivant gives you more value for the bucks. It´s as I´ve understood almost the same kind of steel, the handle is more comfortable and somewhat curved upwards. And at a lower price.
 
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