Here's a prime example of differences of opinion. Worth a read.

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Mar 5, 1999
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My grandmother had seven uncles who fought in the Civil War -- 4 for the South, 3 for the North. I can imagine how this mother must feel. Wars and politics do, indeed, make strange bedfellows.
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(March 6) - Travis and Taylor Burnham are both in the Army yet find themselves on opposite sides of a looming conflict with Iraq.

Travis, 24, is stationed at Fort Drum, N.Y., where he applied for conscientious objector status in January. Taylor, 27, is a combat engineer in Kuwait waiting for a potential invasion of Iraq.

``I know how a mother might have felt in the Civil War having sons on both sides,'' said their mother, Judith ``J.P.'' Burnham, a social work professor at East Tennessee State University in Johnson City, Tenn.

``I'm very divided. I support both of my sons,'' she said. She keeps a yellow ribbon on her office door for Taylor and a war protest sign on the wall for Travis.

Travis describes himself as a pacifist. In high school, he was kidded about being not aggressive enough for sports. During basic training, he refused to chant ``kill'' with the other soldiers. More recently, he marched in anti-war protests and spoke openly about his objections.

``I'm opposed to taking the life of another human being,'' he said. ``I understand there are situations where we react to human instincts and in self-defense, but to aggressively and collectively destroy another human life, my conscience won't allow me to do it.''

His mother says older brother Taylor has reservations about the war, too, but understood when he enlisted that doing his duty might mean using violence.

In joining the military, the two men followed the example set by their father, Jeff, and oldest brother, Preston. They enlisted in peacetime to earn money for college, gain discipline and see the world.

Travis joined the Army in 1999 after he dropped out of college and ran out of money while traveling in Europe. He sought help from his father to return home.

``I told him I'd send him $300 if he'd join the Coast Guard,'' recalled the elder Burnham, an engineer and a member of the Coast Guard in the 1960s. ``I think it's a good thing for young men or young women to join the military, learn a skill, get some discipline and contribute to the country's safety.''

But the Coast Guard had a 22-month waiting list and Travis was impatient. He signed up for a five-year hitch with the Army and is now assigned to the 10th Mountain Division as a photojournalist.

``It was the Clinton administration, the economy was strong and war didn't seem to be on the horizon,'' Travis said. ``Not once did any of the recruiters I spoke with mention war, enemy, shooting or death.''

His older brother also joined the Army for direction. He attended college but was uninspired and drifting. He decided to enlist in 1998 and after a five-year stint plans to study environmental biology in Maine.

Now assigned to the 814th Engineer Company at Fort Polk, La., Taylor has been in Kuwait since Valentine's Day. Security concerns have kept him from contacting his family since he left the United States.

The Army is investigating his younger brother's conscientious objector application. The process involves 26 steps and usually takes at least 90 days. Travis has already been interviewed by a chaplain and a psychiatrist.

The Army can refuse him, grant him a discharge or move him to a position where he would be unlikely to have to fire on an enemy - like the position he already has.

``We can't push him much farther back than being a public affairs guy,'' said Lt. Col. Bryan Hilferty of the 10th Mountain Division. ``He's a photojournalist. I don't know of any photojournalist in the history of the U.S. Army who has ever killed anybody.''

The Army has granted two voluntary discharges to conscientious objectors this fiscal year, according to its records. Last year, it granted 17, and the year before nine. The highest number in recent years was 59 in 1991 during the Persian Gulf War.

As he waits for word, Travis worries about his brother. He met with Taylor in December at Fort Polk and told him how he felt about a war with Iraq and what he planned to do. There were no hard feelings.

``There was no, 'How can you do this to me?''' Travis said. ``He pretty well understood and he accepted it.''

03/05/03 15:19 EST

Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
 
Boy, talk about a loaded thread. I personally have a conscience objection to any "conscientious" objector.
 
I guess Travis conscientiously objects to being shot at. I would be willing to release him from his duties in exchange for his citizenship.

n2s
 
I have no problem with conscientious objectors. Americans have a broad base of principles and values that includes those who do not believe in going to war.

I have a BIG problem with someone who voluntarily enlists in our military and collects a paycheck while calling himself a conscientious objector. The proper term for that person in my book is coward.
 
Nobody here will remember this but me. During WWII actor Lew Ayers went into Army service as a conscientious objector and got some flak for it -- he served as a corpsman in frontline battle and won several medals -- one or two for bravery under fire, I think. It takes a lot of guts to put yourself in harm's way to go rescue a downed comrade when the bullets are flying. There's good ones and there's bad ones.
 
Bill,
was it the Lewis Ayres who played in "All quiet on the Western Front"?

Andreas
 
I love this:
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``It was the Clinton administration, the economy was strong and war didn't seem to be on the horizon,'' Travis said. ``Not once did any of the recruiters I spoke with mention war, enemy, shooting or death.''
________________________________

Uh, you were joining the ARMY mate!. And this is after the first Gulf War. :rolleyes:

I have no worries if a person is a conscientious objector, but joining the armed forces & then complaining about being sent off to fight a war strikes me as incredibly naive.
 
If I recall correctly Mohandas Gandhi served in the military in South Africa in a medical capacity. He has my highest respect.

I would make a distinction between people who willingly enlist in the army or are drafted and make their conscientious objector status known at that time, and someone who enlists for financial reasons without making such reservations known, and then brings reservations up later when it appears as if he might be exposed to personal risk.

I find it difficult to muster respect for this latter type of person.
 
conscientious objector:barf:

I believe that sums it up pretty well.;)


Wonder what he would do if he was attacked....I guess he would die a coward....:rolleyes:

He doesn't belong in our Military that's for sure.
 
Conscientous objector that gets drafted = bad luck

" " that enlists = :confused:

Like Uncle Bill said I'm sure there's good and bad ones. I'd have no problem with it as long as they didn't put someone else into harm's way due to bowing out of battle. Like if they were a medic etc.. OR, if they declared it from the beginning to the military and they were okay with it and assigned them accordingly.

The moral/ethical problem as I see it is someone who enlists, while keeping their beliefs secret to collect all the benefits while planning all along to scream "conscientious objector" when danger arrives and thereby put someone else into their place on the front lines. I'm not saying that's what the story is above however...

Edited to add: WHOOPS! should have read Howard's post first:o
 
I knew guys when I was in the Army in Germany during the first Gulf War. We sat around quite a bit talking about the possibility of having to go to combat. Some of the guys didn't think they could bring themselves to kill another human being. BUT they were ready and willing to go into harms way with the rest of us if our unit was called up (we weren't). I have the utmost respect for someone willing to serve in any capacity, I have nothing but contempt for anybody who plays the "Conscientious Objector" ploy when it's time to do their duty! These "people", they're not soldiers, are nothing more than cowards!
 
If your 18 or older, they call you a man. If your old enough to sign and swear to uphold this country, they call you a soldier.
If you sign and willing to fight, you are a soldier.If you sign, swear,take the money and whine: your a loser.

You take the job and swear an oath that not many professions will expect you to uphold for so little money and honor. Its true that very few really have respect for those in service except when the **** hits. Once your job is done they really do not want to hear from or about you except to make themselves feel better about their sacifice.Its easy to be a hero when there are no hot problems.

If you can pass basic and still not have any problems. Then it is very simple. If you took the money ,then do the job. Anything less is call fraud.
 
I guess I'm a pacifist of the Al Capone school. He once said:

"You get a lot further with a kind word and a gun than just a kind word."

As long as I keep hearing of how instances involving the racking of a shotgun prove over and over to be one of the most effective means of stopping violence immediately and without anyone getting harmed, I'll continue to go along with Al.
;)
 
You could always be a combat medic. You won't carry a rifle, but it still takes some big brass ones to do the job. I agree with most on this thread, someone who enlists then plays concientous objector probably just doesn't want to get shot at. When I signed up, nobody talked about war or killing either, it was all college and bonus money. I'll admit that those things had a big influence on my decision to enlist. However, when the sh!t hit the fan on 9/11, while I was still in Basic Training no less, everything got real serious real quick. I meant it when I took my oath though, and I knew that war and killing were a very real possibility. Anyone who takes that oath without meaning it is a fool, and this is what they get for it. I'm sure that the army isn't making the investigation too easy for him though, they have ways of making things very unpleasant without breaking a single rule.
 
Most join to serve their country, but sadly, many join to have their country serve them. The young man in question has not kept faith with honor, and needs to be shown the door so he can go earn his keep elsewhere. If I feel sorry for anybody, it's the mother.

Sarge
 
You conered things pretty will Howard. I won't try to add a thing to what yopu said.

Rusty, you have a good point too with the shotgun. I remember very well the sound of a model 97 going into battery behind a brass 12 gauge shell.:)
 
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