Here's a prime example of differences of opinion. Worth a read.

Pappy, that's the sad part.

You have to be clear and determined that you aren't bluffing, and ready to do what's needed instantly if necessary.

I try to remember what either Bill Jordan or Charlie Askins said of someone trying to shoot it out with him: not only is he trying to kill me, he is trying to make my wife a widow and my child an orphan. ( And the h*ll you'll do THAT to them if I can help it. )

I'm often joking when I talk of charity and love toward others being something I strive for. It is something very meaningful to me. And sometimes passions are too strong to express without being putting it humorously. I trust we can understand that, and laugh, without it diminishing the message.
 
I only met a few in my life who enjoyed killing. I don't but if somebody tries to kill me my Buddhist vows are put on hold. I think most men are this way.
 
Since he doesn't want to live up to his vows why should the army.
1 No student aid
2 No medical benefits
3 No bonus points for civilain jobs (ie postal jobs)
4 No burial aid (ie palbears flags caskit plot)
5 No commisary rights
6 Let him pay for his room and board out of his pay
And if he doesn't want to fight let him wash pots and dig out houses(in a mine field)
 
I agree with Howard, and that it takes some serious courage for a conscientious objector to serve under fire as a medic or what not.

I also agree that if you sign up, you should be prepared to do the job. However, I don't think that military recruitment does enough to show that signing up involves the very real possibility of KILLING PEOPLE or DYING. Recruitment materials are real slick - anyone see the Navy commerical where the guy is hiking in the woods, then jumps in the river where he morphs into a rescue diver, then cuts to footage of SEALs zooming around in boats? The distinctly omit the middle part, where the SEALs killed a bunch of people to accomplish their mission. Prime time TV is more violent than that!

Anyone with half a brain should know that being in the military invovles killing people. However, the kids being recruited are 17, 18,19. Sometimes the recruiting starts at 15 or 16 (obviously they don't enter service until after High School). Lots of these kids don't have half a brain. They're worried about what's for dinner (if they will get dinner), not about a year, month or week down the road. I can't speak for the specific individual here, but when a recruiter says you can earn money for college, put food on the table, learn a trade, go on camping trips with guns and explosives, etc. etc., you think that's what you're in for.

I'm going to stop now.

By the way, I teach high-school students, in a rural area with few opportunities and have several family members in the service. YMMV
 
Tohatchi NM, I'll agree that recruiters are slick, too much so. I had the benefit of a father who is currently serving in the reserves and a sometimes overzealously protective mother. I won't say I knew what I was getting into, because I didn't, but I knew I could end up in combat. I was 17 when I signed up for the delayed entry program, btw.

Lots of these kids don't have half a brain.
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I'm sorry, but I think you're pretty far off base with this one. I've always been told that I'm mature for my age, but I still feel that most teenagers are more mature than they are given credit for. People often live up to other's expectations for them. I've witnessed this first-hand. When I was in my advanced training about a year ago, I was always frustrated with many of the people there with me because they behaved so childishly. Now, I'm working with a lot of those same people here in Korea, and now they act a lot differently, they're a lot more mature in their actions. In AIT, the rules were very restrictive and sometimes it seemed our drill sergeants thought that we were all about five years old. The expectation was that we were a bunch of little children just waiting for a chance to go finger paint on the wall. Many of my compatriats did their level best to live up to that expectation. Korea isn't a whole lot better, but we do have a little more freedom and the expectations and the individual treatment is different. Our supervisors expect us to be responsible adults, and most of us meet that expectation. Many of the people I couldn't stand at AIT I've found to be mature adults under these changed circumstances. Obviously, this isn't a universal law. Some people never grow up. But if you talk to a person and you expect them to be an immature idiot, that expectation will be obvious to them and you've just taken away any incentive they may have had to prove you wrong.
 
Yup, I spoke too quickly. Thanks for calling me on it.

Expectations do mean a lot. Many of my students are handling adult responsibilities at 15. However, I think that the judgement and priorities of many people at 18 are different than they would be a few years later. At 18 the money and opportunties are seductive, especially when you don't have much, no other doors are open, and you'd do anything to get out. A few years later, especially after a reality check in basic, a minor detail like killing people could be a lot more important. People change quite a bit after high school, due to a whole range of new experiences and
responsibilities. IMHO recruiting takes advantage of this as any good advertisement would, but should present more of the responsibilities with the fun and cash. This doesn't have to be on TV, perhaps just a straight talk in the recruiter's office.

As always, YMMV

Originally posted by Roadrunner
[B}
I'm sorry, but I think you're pretty far off base with this one. I've always been told that I'm mature for my age, but I still feel that most teenagers are more mature than they are given credit for. People often live up to other's expectations for them. I've witnessed this first-hand. When I was in my advanced training about a year ago, I was always frustrated with many of the people there with me because they behaved so childishly. Now, I'm working with a lot of those same people here in Korea, and now they act a lot differently, they're a lot more mature in their actions. In AIT, the rules were very restrictive and sometimes it seemed our drill sergeants thought that we were all about five years old. The expectation was that we were a bunch of little children just waiting for a chance to go finger paint on the wall. Many of my compatriats did their level best to live up to that expectation. Korea isn't a whole lot better, but we do have a little more freedom and the expectations and the individual treatment is different. Our supervisors expect us to be responsible adults, and most of us meet that expectation. Many of the people I couldn't stand at AIT I've found to be mature adults under these changed circumstances. Obviously, this isn't a universal law. Some people never grow up. But if you talk to a person and you expect them to be an immature idiot, that expectation will be obvious to them and you've just taken away any incentive they may have had to prove you wrong. [/B]
Click to expand...
 
Tohatchi NM, thanks for the further explanation, and I do agree with you on this. A lot of recruiters are in it for the money, and they are pressured a lot to meet their quotas. Recruiter duty pays very well, so they don't want to lose it. The army is going to be a much tougher sell now though; the government has had to cut a lot of those big bonuses way down. They still get a lot of people with the "camping with guns and explosives" though. We had a discussion in my squad one day about the idiocy of comparing a military field exercise to a camping trip. We all agreed that non of us had ever had to pull guard, wear chemical gear, or go days on end without sleep on any camping trip we had done for fun. Then our NCOIC, a Master Sergeant, broke in and made the most telling point of all.

He said, "Hold on here, you guys are missing the point. The army takes the fun out of everything . If sex were an army activity, we'd all be celibate!" It was kind of hard to argue with that logic.
 
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